– How annoyed were you when, after some media exposure, your sculpture Stargazer – which was exhibited next to Műcsarnok as part of the National Salon – was vandalized (to be specific, phosphorescent phalluses were daubed on it)?
– Stargazer had already been exhibited several times, for example, it was included in last year’s Art Market at Millenáris Park. It stood for months in Castle Garden Bazaar as part of an exhibition and at no time did it suffer any form of attack, just like my other sculptures. People loved it, perhaps precisely because like the others, one can ‘take possession’ of these statues. Such as Stone Foot erected in Egyetem Square, Scooter-Rider in Váci Street and the 1956 memorial in Gesztenyéskert, which was made for the 60th anniversary of the Revolution. When we celebrate, anyone can pay their respects at the monument shaped like a white dove, they can place a wreath or take flowers there, and on the other days of the year, kids can climb on it – it’s a great photo location.

– The prudery with which the sexuality of the Stargazer was suddenly discovered is surprising in an age that is not known for its modesty. On this basis, shouldn’t all the statues of Antiquity be censored?
– Abroad, such objections in relation to a sculpture would not even arise. It featured more than once at ecclesiastical exhibitions and it didn’t bother anybody. The sculpture is not about emphasizing sexuality, nor are any of my other works, either, it is stupidity that there are people who try to find fault in this regard. I think the vandalism is the result of whipped up tempers but a sculptor must accept that what is exhibited in a public space is also subject to vandalism.

Even Michelangelo’s superb Pietà was vandalized at the time! One has to be prepared for this. But it is such primitivism that it is not worth wasting breath on.

It is not possible to create a sculpture that every single person likes, one has to learn to accept criticism. But I consider the outcry experienced on the basis of the criticism ridiculous. Still, it came in very handy for me. While there were articles about Stargazer I gained even greater publicity and I sold several works, too. The fact that the statue has been standing in a public space for eight years and there was never a problem, only now, as a result of a commentary, is a warning about how dangerous a weapon the media can be when it shapes the public discourse.

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Photo: Tamás Páczai

– You mentioned that Stargazer has nothing to do with emphasizing sexuality. What is the message of Boldi sculptures?
– If somebody looks at my sculptures, they find that all are looking upwards or are turning their head towards the horizon. Everybody can come to their own conclusions on what this means but this attitude obviously is in connection with my worldview, that is, the approach which shaped the world of forms characteristic of me.

– Boldi sculptures are truly characterful and inimitable. For example, all are somewhat rounded and chubby. Is your inner being similarly rounded and chubby?
– When I was a child, I liked to collect stones that had been eroded by the water into rounded shapes. I was fascinated that the river bed formed, shaped, smoothed their surfaces over millennia. The college where I graduated as a sculptor taught us to draw, to pattern on a model, and once I graduated the game with stone arrived. Since then I have been interested in how I could shape a sculpture like a pebble; from whichever angle I look at it, it always turns, and the soft, rounded forms direct its shape.

In whichever direction one turns the sculpture, all curves flow beautifully – I don’t like breaks. In my eye the human figure is also perfect, beautiful and I try to find the harmony of curves also in my portrayals of humans.

– Who do you consider to be your master? It is as if your sculptures show an affinity with the works of the Colombian fine artist Fernando Botero.
– When my world of form developed, I didn’t know about Botero. Obviously, plumpness is not only a characteristic of Botero, one can find these traits in early, beautiful, authentic and timeless African and Aztek sculptures as well. I reckon that the time somehow died for these early artists and I am the same way somehow with my works. I think that all art must be about immutability. Even if a work of art is taken out again after the passing of a few hundred years, it still retains the same features, it still radiates the same harmony as when it was made.

– In catalogues, the Brȃncuși effect is always brought up in relation to you. Why is this important?
– Brȃncuși, in moving from Romania to Paris, became one of the most influential artists in Europe. The fact is that his impact can be perceived in me in terms of the perfection of forms and curves, as well as in the conscious effort towards this end.

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Photo: Tamás Páczai

– You had the chance to study in Carrara. What experiences did you take away from there?
– I graduated after the change of regime, in 1995, then I studied in Villány at the master school until 1997. I made it to Carrara on a scholarship, where one could just about afford the stone from the scholarship fund but there was not much left over to feed myself.

– So you were dining out on stone soup?
– That’s about it! And I would like to express my appreciation to my wife because not everyone would have gone through the whole thing for these several years! The white marble I still use comes from the Michelangelo quarry, meaning that the Renaissance genius worked with exactly the same stone. When his sculptures are cleaned, they show up with exactly the same whiteness. Obviously, one has to approach such material with the proper respect, which is why for the final sanding a machine is never used, rather it is done by hand – this makes the surface silky, it almost brings it to life.

– Not all your sculptures are from white marble. What other materials do you work with?
– A few are made of black Spanish marble, the other sculptures are from bronze with an Aristide Maillol patina finish – it was the labour of 15 years until I reached the point where we were able to create this patina.

Since I mostly exhibit abroad, I had to come up with a quality that stands above the international average. In fact, this technique is of museum standard, the bronze itself is chiselled like stone.

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Photo: Tamás Páczai

– Looking through the sculptures, I see there is a whole series entitled Genesis. What is it that fascinates you in this subject?
– I am in the second year of part of the scholarship programme of the Hungarian Academy of Arts, for which on the one hand I tendered with the Genesis series, and on the other hand with the Awakening series, which is actually nothing more than a whole series of female figures braiding hair.

– But why make several versions of one sculpture?
– One statue unfolds from another. By the time I have finished one, another idea has already formulated in my mind: maybe it would be much better if I did it this way. True, there are many from Genesis, but the whole subject of genesis is inexhaustible: we can even use the word creation in the sense of creating form. What increasingly excites me is the relationship between space and sculpture.

– This is an interesting question because Scooter-Rider and Stargazer stand at several points in the world, that is, these sculptures were also made in multiple copies. Can these sculptures be placed anywhere? There are works of art that cannot be anywhere other than the specific place that the artist imagined them.
– First came the statue, then I looked for a place for it. With only a few exceptions, for example, the Mártonhegy sculpture of St. Martin, I do not work on commissions. I make my sculptures from an inner compunction and they then find their place in perhaps a public space or in a private or public collection. In fact, the majority of my collectors live abroad.

– Did you ever see a location and then imagine a sculpture for it?
– Once a particular location sparked something in me. This is how, for example, Stargazer’s twin, Seagazer, made it into a large private collection in Scotland. The work is scanning the sea, facing towards England from a point jutting out from the estate.

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Photo: Tamás Páczai

- You have made the Prima Primissima Prize figure since 2013 – is it pure coincidence that it somewhat resembles the Oscar Prize?

– One of the tender conditions was that it resemble to a certain extent the Oscar award but in the meantime it should also be specifically Hungarian.

That is why the figure holds a bow up high, because archery, arching towards the sky, striving upwards are all characteristics of we Hungarians, and what’s more these traits are in line with the spirit of the award.

– What did you feel when you heard that the sculpture of St. John the Baptist, which had hitherto stood behind the altar in the Church of St. John the Baptist in Felső-Krisztinaváros, was to be removed from the church on the orders of the new parish priest?
– It is in a good spot. It is important to recognize that when a building, a sculpture or a painting leaves the artist’s hand, it takes on its own life. Just like a child: we raise the child, dream about his/her life, but then the child makes his/her own decisions and lives his/her own life, instead of realizing our dreams. The fate of a work of fine art is determined by those whose hands it falls into. I cannot influence this, nor should I try. It has to be let go.

– Speaking of fate: you are the great-great-grandchild of Ödön Lechner and your daughter was immediately taken on to the graphics department of the fine arts university. Is perhaps talent inherited in an inevitable way?

– I think that Bolda will spend her happiest years under the guidance of József Szurcsik, who is blessed with fantastic teaching abilities and is an extremely good painter.

Yes, there are artist families, just as there are architecture and musician families. Genes are genes.

Practically speaking, art has been present in our family since the fifth generation because Ödön Lechner’s father was also extremely talented, just as were his seven siblings: although one became a doctor and another a translator of literature, all cultivated one branch of the arts or another to a high standard, one painted, one drew, another sculpted. Coming back to Bolda, she has been drawing since she was very young, whether in a good or a bad mood. From behind her talent there is a gleam of her intelligence that allows her to express something that is very rare.

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Photo: Tamás Páczai

– You will be 50 in October. Do you have any way of summing up these five decades?
– I am undergoing a self-examination: did I use my time wisely? I am a believer of ‘carpe diem’, I like living in the moment, plucking all its flowers, exploiting 24 hours in the day. But, in my fiftieth year, it would be nice to have a major exhibition where with 100-150 sculptures I could present a cross-section of my career so far. This anniversary spurs me on to work even harder.

Katalin Novák, the ‘face’ of family-support policy. This is no exaggeration. But not merely a ‘face’, not merely a symbol, but also the active and energetic initiator of and driving force behind these measures. 

When as a journalist I found myself in her office just after New Year’s Day, she showed me a picture on her phone with a certain measure of justifiable pride: this was the first time she had managed to bake really delicious macarons for her family for the holiday. She was fully aware that there are housewives for whom not only the political and social network is important, but also the family network that is interwoven through everyday life. During the interview she made no secret of her concern that two of their three children had started new schools where they had to perform to a far higher standard than previously and she found it difficult to arrange more time to help them cope with the new challenges. As a politician, Katalin Novák – even having achieved such an elevated position – has maintained contact with the real world, she has not lost her sense of the problems faced by ordinary people – and perhaps we are not greatly mistaken if we say that this is largely due to members of her family. In an earlier interview with Képmás magazine she formulated the correlation between practical political-economic decisions and social credibility thus:

“Credibility is enhanced when there are ever more of us among decision-makers who know from personal experience about the family way of life.”

The measures and achievements of the family support era hallmarked by the name of Katalin Novák encompass almost all social spheres affecting families today. The following is an abbreviated list of just some of the key measures: CSOK, the family housing allowance programme expanded in several stages so today it can be claimed not only by large families but also by families with a single child, and used not solely for new housing but also for buying or expanding second-hand dwellings; the sum of infant care allowance has increased; young newlyweds receive an allowance if they sign up to have children, which can also be claimed by widows and divorcees; mortgage repayments for large families have been cut; mothers with four or more children are totally exempt from income tax; childcare benefit (GYED) due to grandparents; continuous expansion of kindergarten and nursery school places; car purchase programme open to large families; child care home allowance introduced; the nursing care allowance has been increased; the childcare benefit has been increased; adoptive parents are entitled to all family benefits in exactly the same way as birth parents; infertility treatment has been made cheaper and more accessible.

Many symbolic and economic measures have sent the message to Hungarian citizens that establishing a commitment in love, getting married, starting and maintaining a family, working, having children and raising them conscientiously are good, valuable, socially useful and respectable actions and the way to live one’s life.

Some people consider the measures designed to promote the birth of loved children to be exaggerated or unnecessary, because they believe that the demographic trend within Hungary is already irreversible. Katalin Novák strongly rejects this attitude of surrender. “We can never put our hands up, what’s more, the demographic game is not over, there are many different scenarios and it is far from irrelevant which one becomes reality! One thing is certain: as long as Hungary has a civil government, it will work with all its strength and means to ensure that Hungary survives, and that it survives as a Hungarian country”, she stated to Képmás in an earlier interview.

Contrary to what some ‘green’ civil and political movements advertise, having children is not a nuisance for an overpopulated planet; instead, the acceptance of offspring gives purpose to all economic, technical and intellectual developments. “Today the fundamental principle is clear: the more children, the greater the level of support,” Katalin Novák said in summing up her endeavours in an interview given to our portal early this year. “Perhaps now Hungarians can really feel that those who are planning and expecting children can count on assistance. It is important that in every new life situation – if a brother or sister joins the family, if a child starts going to school, if a family would like a new home or would like to exchange their car – then it is well worth getting informed about the opportunities because in virtually every life situation we stand alongside young people and families, offering help.”

One doesn’t have to be particularly child-loving, religious, conservative or idealistic to understand the need for policies that rely on and support well-functioning families.

This can be realized when thinking using common sense and taking into consideration financial aspects. Katalin Novák put it like this: “As an economist, the formula is simple: if children are not born, then the Hungarian nation will simply decline and become ever weaker, we will disappear; but if we are to consider this from a more imminent perspective, then there will not be sufficient citizens to keep the elderly.”

One of the greatest successes in the career of the former state secretary, and at the same time perhaps one of her most uplifting moments, was the announcement of the Family Protection Action Plan – even though she didn’t announce it but instead Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, still it represented the highpoint so far of the work of Katalin Novák. She remembers it thus: “The announcement of the Family Protection Action Plan (despite me knowing what the prime minister was going to say) was for me a moving moment. I received feedback from many other places saying that others were similarly affected as they sat in front of their TV sets after the announcement. For us, the real work started after this.”

At the same time, symbolic and practical government measures send the message that there is no place for violence in the family: the institutional system providing assistance for victims of domestic abuse is constantly being expanded while the effectiveness of preventing and punishing violence is increasing. “Domestic violence is not a private matter. That something occurs behind closed doors is as much a crime as if it happened in full view of everyone,” said Katalin Novák when still a state secretary at the opening event (February 2020) of the Hungarian Interchurch Aid campaign. The National Crisis Management and Information Telephone Service (OKIT) can be contacted day and night, free of charge, over the past few years the number of safe houses offering refuge for victims has tripled, and a greater level of financial resources than any earlier government has been mobilized in order to put an end to domestic violence.

Katalin Novák does not call herself a feminist although conservative feminists have every right to view her as a representative – through her career and her deeds – of their movement.

She herself stated: “Yes, women must receive support. We do not want anyone to lose an opportunity just because they are a woman. The greatest challenge in the life of women is when family and work tasks clash. This is why we are trying to provide the greatest help here.”

Success is important for the new minister without portfolio, that is, that measures intended to help reach their target groups, and that they represent genuine and properly focused aid and encouragement for them. In order to achieve this, she pays close attention to feedback and it is no secret that measures are shaped accordingly. “Family policy is a little like football in that everyone has their own opinion about it. Which personally speaking I am pleased about because this ensures that feedback makes its way to us, we are then able to assess the claims, and in given cases we can insert them into the funding system,” she said in the interview given to kepmas.hu. “Stability of legislation and predictability are important but where necessary we respond sensibly and reasonably.”

The appointment of the minister without a portfolio suggests that Katalin Novák will be able to validate the greater responsibilities and wider opportunities associated with ministerial authority in the field of family support in the near future.

How do you recall the mood of the years preceding the change of regime? Did you ever think that the transformation could come about in your lifetime?

“I had just turned seven years old when, at dawn on the 4 November 1956, instead of trams Soviet tanks rumbled through Pest, on the Grand Boulevard. In my mind, everything may have started then. I was imbued with my parents' alarm and restlessness. Twelve years later, it was Prague and then the Poles. In other words: Corvin Lane – Wenceslas Square – Gdansk shipyard. For me, the message of these three symbolic sites is that there is hope for change, they prove that sooner or later movements will have their consequences that create new situations, because – this is a very simple truth – the power of no empire can last forever.”

What were the signs of the impending collapse of the Kádár regime – had change become inevitable or did it have to be forced?

“In my estimation, the change of regime process started on 23 October 1956.

“The communist system was swept away by crowds numbering hundreds of thousands. It was revived with the help of Soviet tanks. The dictatorial system kept itself alive for decades under the hand of the Soviet empire and secret service, with foreign loans and by maintaining a constant state of readiness for threats. However, we believed in the possibility of change, our faith was strengthened, encouraged by the Polish pope, the Central-Eastern European, mainly Polish underground movement, and national emigration.

“All this was preceded by much local mobilization, relations forming into freedom circles, which were established around specific cultural houses, libraries, church congregations, writers or journals, for example, Tiszatáj in Szeged. All these engaged in politics at the limits of tolerance and prohibition, but we considered our job to be to stretch these boundaries. The opportunity for change was accelerated by major political events. The senile decay of the Soviet system, Gorbachev’s perestroika, and last but not least the Polish Solidarity movement also reinforced us.”

What sort of situation did you live through from the middle of the 1960s onwards, which prompted you personally to become one of the shapers of processes?

“I was consciously aware even at the age of 10 that my grandparents living in Nyírség did not join the cooperative, but the orchard was taken away from them and the cherry trees were felled. When in 1969 I moved to Lakitelek after the reality of the Pest tenements and the small village in Nyírség, the Szikra village school, the healthy instinct for life of families created situations which developed in me organization skills for better lifestyles.”

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Sándor Lezsák in 1979

Did you feel fear or doubt, and if so, why, or were you sure of yourself?

“I was always organizing. In 1979, at the meeting of young writers at Lakitelek, Gyula Illyés taught us to handle doubt: although we could doubt, it was forbidden to fall into despair. He taught us to overcome humiliating events, otherwise one would drown in the stark everyday reality.

“One has to find the path leading from the impossible to the possible because an insoluble situation ruins a person. A cheerful outlook on life, however, gives strength.

“Naturally, this does not mean that any of us were laughing through these years. We faced tough dilemmas about where to go next. This is what I experienced when my situation in Lakitelek became increasingly untenable. Once, József Ratkó called me and told me to go to Nagykálló where a rectory had become vacant. I would have a flat and a job there. Only the person of Ratkó – he worked in the district library – made me think when I pondered how to move on. But that, too, only lasted for a moment. It wouldn’t have been a heroic act had I decided to escape. There was in me a sense of ‘for all that!’, as I also didn’t go in the direction of making samizdat. I am not ready to go underground in my own homeland, in Hungary! What do they think! It was a good feeling that those I followed acted similarly. The founders of MDF, the political golden team: Zoltán Bíró, Sándor Csoóri, István Csurka, Gyula Fekete, Lajos Für, Csaba Kiss Gy. They represented models and if one goes back in history one will find many things that help in difficult situations of life.

“According to an oft quoted statement of István Bibó, a democrat is a person who is not frightened. It is easy to say this but I admit that I still feel a shiver, not from fear but from concern and responsibility when I think about the first Lakitelek meeting.

“When, a few minutes after quarter to nine in the evening, Gyula Fekete closed the meeting and we said goodbye to the last guests, the pavilion was empty and suddenly there was a great silence. It felt almost like a weight. I stayed there with the family and all the joy and tension of the day broke over me. I kept on thinking about not messing up anything. I was afraid that the police might take it away from me. I felt that there was no escaping my fate. I had to organize. Neither my wife Gabriella nor my close family ever held me back. The community organized around me grew continuously.”  

What are your best personal memories from this period: what do you most like looking back on and what are you most proud of?

“Beside the birth of our three children, the opening of the Lakitelek meeting in 1987. I quoted László Nagy: ‘We bear red and mourning of revolutions cut at the throat. Another blow to the throat can be fatal.’ As I read out this line, I felt that it weighed a ton. The nearly 170 people could also sense that we were not listening to the news but here, in the garden of our home on the edge of the village, in a hired wedding tent, NEWS was happening.”

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Sándor Lezsák

Is there anything that gives you mixed feelings, about which you feel sorry or disappointed?

“In the period after the free elections in 1990, efforts were made to heal those serious wounds caused by the several decades of state-party rule. There was little sense of achievement and more failures. I consider the biggest factor to be that we did not succeed in winning a two-thirds parliamentary majority at the first free elections so we had no opportunity for radical change.

“To sum up: we could manage this, which is not much, nor is it little, either, on a historical scale.

“For me, the regime changing historical moment was in April 2011, when we approved the Fundamental Law of Hungary, the new constitution, with a two-thirds majority. As far as I am concerned, this is a national programme and its defining part was also present in the declaration of the Lakitelek meeting in 1987.”

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Sándor Lezsák

Have you been able to experience and enjoy as a private individual these fate-changing years or does your role require the mindset of a politician from beginning to end?

“Today, I still don’t know what this concept means: mindset of a politician. There are no problems, there are only tasks, we generally say. Since I have been aware, tasks have piled up in front of me. There are tasks which must be solved in the family, as a father, or now, as a grandfather, some in public life, as a member of parliament, some in the Hungarikum Liget being built in Lakitelek, that is, in the People’s College (Népfőiskola), and some I am able to resolve only in writing, in poetry or drama.”

What would be the message to your young, regime-changing self from the perspective of 30 years – and what sort of message would the then young Sándor Lezsák send to today’s generation?

“My mother said when she was 90: if I had known that I would live so long, I would have taken greater care of my health. I could give no better advice than this during an epidemic.”

The article was written on the occasion of the anniversary of Change of Regime 30 with the support of the National Cooperation Fund.

In the space of just a few days, two Hungarian women found themselves sharing in major photography prizes. Bea Kovács won one of the top prizes at the Press Photo Competition, while Eszter Horváth came out top in this year’s Environment (individual) category at World Press Photo. In fact, she has already had photos published (under the name Esther Horvath) in the pages of National Geographic, New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Time magazine.

What was it like to receive this news?
“Like an explosion. This prize was always my greatest dream. It was already a fantastic experience to receive the e-mail telling me that I had been nominated, that is, that I would be winner of a prize and I wasn’t at all bothered in which position my photo would end up. When during the virtual awards ceremony they named and presented the third-, then second-placed photos, and neither of them were mine, tears of joy immediately started to flow because it was such an incredible feeling.”

I presume that when there is no epidemic, the results are not announced in the framework of an online private group chat.
“Each year, this is a beautiful event that is usually attended by the king of the Netherlands, and it also marks the formal opening of the World Press Photo exhibition. I recently realized that although it would have been great to experience all this live, still thanks to the online awards ceremony at least sixty people didn’t fly to Amsterdam, in the process expanding the carbon footprint.”

Over the past few years, Hungarian photographers have started picking up prizes at World Press. Is it possible that after the successes of Bence Máté we have finally made it onto the ‘photographer’s map’ and thus things were slightly easier to you?
“Right up until the end of the competition, the jury have no idea about the photographers, they do not know who took which picture. This time, for instance, the same photographer won first prize in two sub-categories but this only became apparent afterwards.

“So far, Hungarians have won seven times, but I am the first Hungarian woman to be awarded first prize.”

I suppose you remember the exact moment when you snapped the polar bears.
“The photograph was taken on the North Pole MOSAIC expedition where for the first three and a half months, from September last year to January of this, I looked after photo-documenting of the research. This picture was taken right at the beginning of the expedition but we had just entered the winter night, which means that from then on, for several months, it is dark 24 hours a day. I remember that we had just finished dinner and I went out onto the deck when we noticed that a female polar bear and her cub were approaching the boat. They were curious and started sniffing the electrical cable. I raced as fast as I could up to the prow of the boat in case things worked out as I suspected, and the bears followed the cable; that is when I snapped them. When I had taken the photos, especially when the small polar bear cub stood on its back legs, I felt that this would be a significant picture.

“I was really looking forward to a moment like this, where I could show that we researchers are just guests in polar bear country.

“The picture really reflects the polar darkness as well since it is possible to see only what appears in the ship’s spotlight. Perhaps it is precisely because of the barren landscape and flags that many people are reminded of the Moon landings in this photo.”

This all sounds fantastic when you tell the story. However, how can a person take photographs when it is minus forty degrees outside?
“I gradually found out how this would all work. When we were working on the ice, first I would put on a pair of thin gloves, in these would go hand warmers, then I would pull thick ski gloves over the top, but even so my hands would get so frozen in the -40–45 °C that I cried every day. Finally we acquired a pair of huge gloves, known amongst our group as ‘hand saunas’, but they were so unwieldy that when wearing them I couldn’t even press the shoot button on the camera. Finally, I stuck a series of small circles cut from thick duct tape together – like a layered cake – and used this to raise the height of the button, which allowed me take photographs and not lose my hands to frostbite.”

Are the members of the expedition still there at the North Pole, even during the pandemic?
“Yes, they are in the safest place in the world. It is so interesting that at the beginning of the expedition we also spoke theoretically about the fact that if anything should happen in the world, we would be in the best place of all.”

How could you manage being in a place where you see only the moon 24 hours a day and one day is exactly like the next?
“When we were outside, we always wore a face protector, a hat, a scarf and then a hood over all this. The wind blows constantly, one cannot hear a thing and due to the darkness one can only see what happens to be in the beam of the spotlight at that moment.

“After a time I noticed that a person begins to pay attention to his/her inner self because lacking the usual hearing and vision, the senses work differently.”

In fact, your large ship can be considered a quarantine zone because you were only in touch with each other for months at a time. Do you have any experience from the routine you developed there that you are able to utilize in the current situation?
“The parallel frequently comes to mind. Just like now, we find it slightly difficult to know what day of the week it is, so in the North Pole, in non-stop night, it was difficult to keep track of whether it was Wednesday or Thursday, principally because there were never any days off and every single day looked the same. Most often we worked out the date by the type of food served: stewed vegetables were always served on Saturdays. In this situation created by coronavirus, I have asked myself what I can utilize in my current life of those things I learnt there. If I think back to MOSAIC, the truth is that everything depended on nature and the weather, and we were so at the mercy of this higher being that we only ever planned one day ahead. Each evening we had a talk where the next day’s schedule was laid out, but whether what we had planned would actually happen or not nobody could say with certainty.

“It didn’t matter that we had a plan, if the ice started cracking and we had to struggle to save the research equipment, or polar bears turned up, then everything would be upset.

“It is very interesting that my brain became totally accustomed to this and it was inconceivable that I would even consider or begin to think about what would happen in a couple of days’ time. Now the entire planet is in the same situation, virtually everyone is living day to day. I am looking closely at myself to see whether what I could easily handle on the expedition works here as well.”

And do you feel you are managing to make yourself useful here, too?
“I have not failed yet, but I, too, find it is increasingly difficult because everything is ready for my next expedition and all we are waiting for is the green light signaling the end of the pandemic. I am also really excited that finally, I will be able to publish the greatest discovery of the MOSAIC expedition, which I was lucky enough to capture with my camera. All I can reveal in advance about it is that something happened that not even we had expected.”

I suppose that it tends to be men who prefer to work in such inhospitable circumstances. Would you ever have thought as a child that one day you would be trained to defend yourself against polar bears?

“From childhood, I always saw myself first and foremost as a human being, not as a woman or a man, so I never felt that I couldn't achieve this or that as a woman.

“In my work, too, I always pay great attention to treating everyone as a person and not as a woman or a man. It is absolutely characteristic on expeditions as well that anybody who has made it that far and is ready to work 8-10 hours a day in minus 45-degree temperatures without any rest day, for three and a half months, then it is completely irrelevant what gender they are. The point is for them to feel love for the given environment.”

One of our more poignant articles was a report in 2018 on the case of Sári and her caring parents. Following a tragic accident, Sári has been in a semi-comatose state since the age of 16. Photographer Bea Kovács met Sári’s father through a friend before a theatre performance. She immediately wanted to ask if she could document the everyday struggles of the family. Thus was born her Semi-comatose photo documentary, which the National Association of Hungarian Journalists (MÚOSZ) reckons is the best human-centric tender submission this year. From the interview it is apparent that not only was it emotionally difficult to make the photo series but receiving the awards that went with it is not an unambiguous pleasure.

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Photo: Bea Kovács

Have you been able to speak with the family that was the subject of the winning photos?

“Yes, I constantly send them articles that have been published. When in February it transpired that I was category winner, I received the news with mixed emotions. There was a measure of bad feeling combined with my joy because after all, I received this triumph through the tragedy of these people.

“I wasn’t sure whether I was thus allowed to be happy about the prize.

“Of course, the mother Márti congratulated me on the prize. But it also burst forth from her that she would have wished above all that I had never had to take these pictures in the first place.”

You became a photographer from master beautician in your forties. You are a true example that it is never too late to flee from burn-out, learn a new profession and make a success of it. When and why did you start dealing with photography?

“In 2012, I had worked as a beautician for 21 years and had achieved everything I could in the profession: I acquired the title of master beautician, I received the Silver Wreath award of the trade body, I became a specialist trainer, indeed, I had represented Hungary on the jury of an international competition.

“Even so, after a time I began to feel that something wasn’t right with this lifestyle, that I was shut away inside a room from morning to evening and women who wanted to look beautiful were transformed under my hands.

“I felt that this wasn’t providing sufficient impulse. Finally, in 2012, fleeing burn-out, I decided to work in cosmetics only three days a week and this is how things are to this day. As soon as this decision had matured in me, and I am certain this was not coincidence, I found myself looking at an advertisement for a photography course. Until then I had only taken photographs on holiday using my mobile phone or compact camera and I thought it wouldn’t hurt to bring a little awareness into my photography. Since I am somewhat of a perfectionist and I received plenty of support, I completed one photography course after another, I got my National Qualifications Register certificate as a staff photographer, then last year I also enrolled for the photo reporter course run by the Hungarian Journalists Association. I really enjoy myself because photography gives me the room and freedom that earlier I greatly missed in my profession. My greatest pleasure is not the part taking pains with my completed pictures but I am thrilled about what happens till then, until I press the expose button, as I am involved in these stories. This is the thing that give me a real buzz.”

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Photo: Bea Kovács

There are many different kinds of photography, why did you think that the documentary genre was closest to your heart?

“At the beginning, I photographed mainly women who I had applied makeup to in the studio, but I felt that this wasn’t really me. I really got to like the documentary side at the workshops of photographer Gyula Sopronyi and on the documentary course of the Photo Village in Drégelypalánk, led by photographer Róbert László Bácsi. They guided me into the world of story-telling through photographs. Basically I don’t open up to people easily, so at the beginning I only took pictures of people from a good distance using a telephoto lens. One day, Gyula Sopronyi gave me a fixed 28 lens and sent me off to City Park to take a series about the defenders of the park. Once I just noticed that the others were wildly taking pictures but I couldn’t imagine how to ‘thrust my camera’ into the face of an unknown person, since using the given lens it was only possible to take photographs from very close up.

“I quickly realized that I had either to pluck up courage and in the worst case get pushed away, or I wouldn’t be able to take a single shot.

“It didn’t even take five minutes and I found myself having coffee with strangers in front of their tent. It was a great learning experience because I found out that people do not necessarily bite and it is a good thing to go close up to what I want to show about the world.”

It is difficult to imagine that you ever had problems with proximity since you had to become part of a family while taking your prize-winning pictures. You found yourself in numerous intimate life situations in the time that you spent together. How difficult is it to handle such dramatic situations and fates emotionally?

“I still haven’t worked out what my tactic should be: I take in and I process what I have seen, or I stay somewhat remote as a photographer.

“The fact that earlier I learnt mediation, coaching, helps a lot, I reckon, because in both cases it is a fundamental requirement that we cannot be involved in a case, we have to accept the other’s problem extremely objectively.

“Often, in extremely difficult life situations recorded by me, I am most able to help if I have all my wits about me and I concentrate on my work, I remain calm and receptive. I simply cannot permit myself to break down because I cannot afford to direct attention to myself.”

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Photo: Bea Kovács

You mentioned in the documentary film in connection with the prize that when you were taking pictures of Sári, you had just attended a self-awareness therapy course because at least there you could speak out about the more difficult moments. Is it also important in photography that a person is happy in themselves? 

“Absolutely! Through the fact that I am not occupied with myself and my recurring problems, but instead I am well-balanced, means that I have energy and can pay attention to others. In documentary photography, you can only take a good picture about somebody if you are ready to adopt the profundity: if you perceive how they live, you notice the tiny signs, what the community of the people in your photos is like and what their relationship is to each other. It is my opinion that better pictures can be taken if the photographer recognizes this information. I’ve been thinking a lot about why I only started dealing with photography recently, and I have come to the conclusion that I reached a point in my personality where I can pay attention to others with patience, with total dedication and openness.”

You were 11 years old when your until then peaceful childhood was shattered. In September 1944, your father was conscripted into the German army, in December the Soviets took your mother for ‘malinky robot’ (in Russian, literally ‘a little work’), and in early 1945 they confiscated your home. All this happened to your family because in the census of 1941, you declared yourself to be German-speaking. What were the precursors to this? What was the relationship like between Germans and Hungarians in the village you all lived together in?
“Tolna county has been of mixed nationality for centuries. I was born in Váralja in 1933, a small village close to Bonyhád. Until 1943, there were no major problems between the nationalities, the Hungarians and the Germans got along just fine. This is a huge achievement that I cannot emphasize enough: for one and a half centuries, the people of Váralja and surroundings, living alongside each other, had reached the point that they could look on each other as brothers. This is not merely rhetoric because this fraternity was manifested in 1945-46 when they had to help each other.”

What sort of village was Váralja, how should one picture it?
“Located at the foot of the Mecsek hills, two long rows of houses sat alongside the two banks of a stream. The majority of Germans and Hungarians cultivated the land; on the basis of their assets, I would class them as middle-peasants. The poorer among them worked in the mine since there was plenty of coal in and around Váralja. Craftsmen also lived well in the village and there was a need for all kinds of skills. My ancestors were craftsmen or farmers, Váralja was the ancient seat of my father’s family. We were Rákóczis; as far back as I can trace my family tree, my father came from old Hungarian stock but we are not related to the noble family of Rákóczi.

“Several of my father’s ancestors took local German girls to be their wives so speaking German was totally natural in the family.

“My mother’s ancestors resettled from German at the end of the 18th century. There was mixing among the nationalities of Tolna county, as the example of my own parents shows.”

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Choice of religious denomination did not separate people either? 
“German-speaking residents were Evangelical, Hungarian-speaking residents were Reformed, but they married between families if it was advantageous from the point of view of land tenure. Assets overcame all. In my parents’ marriage, too, one could say that reason came to the fore, not emotions, but that is how it was then.”

What language did you use at home?
“Both. It happened that my sister and I asked questions in Hungarian, our parents replied in German, or vice versa. We sometimes inflected Hungarian words in German, and the other way around: ‘Der hat mir geudvarolt.’ – ‘He courted (in Hungarian, udvarolt) me.’ (laughs) In our family, for generations the firstborn girl was named Katalin, while the firstborn boy was János. In fact, the wives of Reformed pastors had a great influence on choice of name within the village. When, for example, the wife of the Reformed minister was called Éva, many little Évas were born in the village.”

Forced labour service and the confiscation of the assets of Germans were preceded by the Jewish deportations between May and July 1944. Did you experience anything of this?
“There was a large Jewish community in Bonyhád, all ethnic groups coexisted with them in peace, but the Jews and Christians did not mix. There were no Jews living in Váralja, which is why I never saw anything of their deportation. However, our general practitioner, doctor Litzmann, was a Jew practicing in Bonyhád. He took out my tonsils in the surgery he had set up in his house, with his wife assisting in operations. After the operation they left me to sleep in the hall. When I woke up one of his daughters brought me ice cream, which was delicious and eased the pain. When the doctor saw that I was fine, he seated me on his motorbike and took me home. I clearly remember them.

“When they started rounding up the Jews, he poisoned himself and his family. One morning the surgery did not open, which is when they were discovered.”

Was it only possible to destroy the peace between German and Hungarian residents from above, forcibly?
“Yes. In the early 1940s, and even in 1943, when the Germans were still seeing advances on the fronts, there were sympathizers of German policies and they became the leaders and active members of the organization Volksbund der Deutschen in Ungarn (People’s Alliance of Germans in Hungary), which was financed from Germany. In May 1944, all the German residents of Váralja were called for a meeting but it was possible to mobilize them only once because the majority could not be effectively influenced politically. However, my father was hit by the enforced military conscription: they took him into the German army as a soldier when it was evident that the Eastern front had collapsed and the Soviets were at the border.”

But wasn’t your father Hungarian? 
“My father was born in Germany because two or three generations of his family had been forced to labour as guest workers in Germany due to the poverty here at home. At that time, they were building mines and factories in the Ruhr and there was demand for an incredible number of labourers. Hungarians and local Germans were pleased to go to Germany as guest workers because they could earn a good wage there. On their return home they built houses and established livelihoods, then the young adult generation also went out there to work, thus several generations of large families found prosperity one after the other. Thus my father was born in Germany and he was still a child when his family resettled in Váralja in the 1920s.”

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So he was actually German?
“The situation was more complicated than that. In 1941, there was a census, in which our family declared itself to be Hungarian with German mother tongue. This was sufficient for my father to be afflicted with all decrees pertaining to the Germans. In the middle of September 1944, the village was virtually emptied because the German men were assembled and marched off. They took them to Poland for training and then sent them to the Western front. A few months later, Szekler families arriving as refugees could officially apply for the houses thus emptied.”

But weren’t only the men taken away? 
“In the first wave, yes, but on 30 November, Váralja was occupied by Soviet troops. In December, they compiled a list that showed those women with German names, aged between 18 and 30 years, who were required to undertake public work, that is, malinky robot. This was the second wave. At that time my father had been absent for months and we didn’t know anything about him.

“In vain did my mother protest that my sister was very small, it didn’t matter, they took her away.

“She worked for three and a half years in one of the coal mines in the Donbass, until she seriously injured her leg and since it would have taken a long time to cure her, they let her go. It took her six months to make her way home.”

How did your family survive this?
“My sister, who at that time was just three years old, suffered terribly at the breakup of the family and our home being taken away from us. Very many Bukovina Szekler refugees from Bácska arrived in the country on wagons, and the county assemblies had to resolve their settlement. The eviction of the Germans represented the solution. A two-horse wagon stood outside the door, the most important items were packed onto this and everything else had to be left. The local Hungarian residents thus got, or more precisely collected the domestic animals that had been abandoned – this was only sensible because otherwise the animals would have died. And, of course, for this an applicant was required who hankered after our house, my father’s well-equipped carpentry workshop and tools. The fact is that at that time our family was relatively well off, carpentry work brought in a good wage, so it is no surprise that the new arrivals were keen to acquire our place.”

Was all this done on the grounds that the Germans in Hungary were war criminals, while the arrivals coming as refugees were Hungarian?
“They cited this as a reason, but the main reason was that the refugees and displaced persons coming from Hungarian-inhabited areas beyond the border had to be homed somewhere. This solution presented itself.

“There we were, penniless, with a wagon full of stuff, and on top of the wagon I sat with my sister. We had to find somewhere to live.

“A neighbouring family took us in to their outhouse in the courtyard and this became our home. Two beds were squeezed in, in one, grandmother slept with my sister, and in the other the grandfather slept, while there was no place for me. I remember how little I understood of what was happening. I slept for three or four nights wherever I could find a place.”

How did you survive these years?
“The Sisters of Mercy in Bonyhád accepted me in their halls of residence along with about 25 other girls who were similarly without a place to stay. They also took us in because the news was going around that Russian soldiers were raping women. I completed the higher elementary school for girls, several of the residents of Bonyhád helped us with food donations, bedding and clothing.”

What was life like in the residence of the Sisters of Mercy?
“I am very grateful for the board, lodging and education they gave me but it was difficult for them to find the right tone with teenage girls, they were unable to provide useful advice about our physical development. I now realize that they were elderly nuns, there were only two young ones among them, what else could we have expected? They did everything for us that they could, they were generous in providing help. We girls suffered somewhat from the heavy discipline that characterized our life in the residence, but the education we received there made it possible for me to continue studying.”

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What happened to your father?
“He was captured in France, then he was handed over to the Americans who released him. He set off for home, he worked in towns and villages on his route, earning enough money to continue travelling. Later on he told me that he always made sure to travel alongside the Danube in order not to lose his way. When he arrived home, his trials and tribulations were not over: it was possible that he would be branded a deserter and as punishment he would be taken away to the Soviet Union.

“That is why he hid in a press house on a vineyard in Bonyhád and he kept in contact with us in secret.

“He lived there for a year, even throughout the winter. He made a fire and cooked himself simple meals.”

Wasn’t he worried that somebody would report him?
“He wasn’t the only one living like this. Later on it turned out that the whole of Mecsek was full of people in hiding who feared for their lives. Luckily, we avoided being deported to Germany because at the time our father was a prisoner and our mother was in the Soviet Union. When finally father could come home our family found itself in a far better situation because he could work legally. In the end the outhouse in the neighbour’s garden proved too small so he went to the community hall where he received authorization for us to rent a room in a house. Thus our grandparents remained where they were and my father, my sister and I moved to a rented room. At that time my mother had still not returned home.”

Who in the family was looking after you and how did you find enough to eat? 
“My paternal grandmother raised my sister and it was a constant worry where to find food for the family. We couldn’t keep our own chickens in the neighbour’s courtyard. Grandpa hoed the land of his hosts and worked where he could in order to earn a little money. We didn’t die of starvation. Grandma lit the iron stove and cooked beans on it. While those cooked for a long time, she washed our clothes and us as well since this was the only time we had hot water. By the time mother returned, my paternal grandfather had died.

“It is a miracle that amidst all this penury not one of us ever lost faith that one day this would change for the better. And this is what happened.”

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How did your mother make it home?
“In the summer of 1948 we believed she was no longer alive, but even so, every morning, together with the other women and children, we went off to the railway station at the end of the village and waited for the train. Notes and letters were often thrown out of the train windows, we collected them and forwarded them to the addressees. This happened every morning, after which we all went our own way to get food or go shopping. Anybody who had a cow found people lining up for milk – as a child, my sister came first when the milk was shared out. Then we got the news that a transport of people had arrived at the Hungarian border from the Soviet Union, but they were not being allowed entry because somebody on the train had TB and they had to wait in quarantine. Then one morning somebody came with the news that “those from Váralja and Bonyhád were arriving”. We raced down there and waited, and suddenly it was true, they had arrived. My mother was limping because the mine car had torn off a large part of the flesh of her calf. This is why they let her return.”

It is a miracle she survived this major injury.
“The accident itself is also a miracle because if it hadn’t happened to her they would have kept her there and she might well have died. She was freed as the price of her pains. She said that the Russian doctor who treated and nursed her was a very decent person.

“So, not everyone there was a bad person, indeed, perhaps soldiers and civilians of all nations preserved some crumbs of humanity even in the most trying of circumstances.

“Health-wise, she was in a very poor state. She brought with her a piece of bread, but such dark bread the like of which we had never seen before since we were used to white bread. We found it sticky, gluey and awfully bad, that is why we were even more sorry for her because she had to eat this sort of food. How interesting that nowadays this has really become fashionable to eat. So, in the summer of 1948 we were once again together as a family and we all continued on our own calvary.”

Did your parents’ relationship survive all this, were they able to recover from these experiences? 
“They were tough people. Neither their relationship nor the way they reared their children was characterized by sentiment. Our mother virtually never spoke about her trials. Perhaps this had been forbidden of those returning from labour camps, but anyway she didn’t want to talk about it, saying we should never ask her. I remember that earlier my mother had been angry with one of her cousins, they wouldn’t talk to each other. They were both taken to Russia together and at that time had been forced to sleep under the same blanket. When they returned home there was a big argument, they really let fly at each other, then slowly they calmed down. (laughs) In fact, my father similarly only very rarely spoke about his captivity and trip back to Hungary, although compared to my mother he was in a far better situation.

“When those who had been deported from the surrounding area returned home en masse, one of the priests announced a meeting of residents of neighbouring settlements. Everyone went and sought out acquaintances who had returned from malinky robot. Church feast days were also used to visit friends and relatives. During these meetings we children heard the occasional comment about what had happened in the labour camps. For example, one of our neighbours said: “They made us strip and we had to run naked in front of the Russians.” Someone then replied: “So you don’t know why they did this? They wanted to know who was pregnant. Anyone who was pregnant was permitted to go home.” But we were never able to put together in a coherent form what we had heard...”

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How did your choice of a career come about? In your family, it was not a tradition for the girls to continue studying.
“I have much to thank to my elementary school teachers who prepared us for the private exams even when we couldn’t go to school. As soon as I took the exams in the eighth grade, I was sent to Dombóvár and the teacher training institute, that is, the Pedagogy Grammar School or as it was renamed later, Hungarian State Teacher Training College. The majority of people studying there were Swabians. From this moment, my life was on the right path.

“My parents were very pleased when I completed teacher training because they considered that I had found my place in the world, I could now go and teach in a village.

“But the devil was in me and I decided that I would go on to higher education in Pest. This astonished my parents. I had to fight very hard so that I could go to university. From that moment on, I found myself at odds with the family, although without exception my teachers in Dombóvár backed me and helped as they could. They suggested that exploiting my German knowledge I should apply to the German department of ELTE university, which at that time could only be selected in parallel with Hungarian studies. However, I was taken on not there but to the department of journalism. Still, as a result of my stubbornness they finally did take me on to the German department. As a university student and in comparison with the earlier poverty, I lived like a king. By then, the socialist management were not interested in my Swabian roots, just that I was the child of a poor miner, which is why I found myself in the most favoured position: besides my study scholarship I also received a social scholarship, I was accommodated in halls of residence and I received free catering.”

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At that time there was the centrally planned economy system with designated workplaces. Where did you find a job?
“After completing university, in 1957 I asked to go to Dombóvár because I was familiar with the town. Luckily, this is where I was sent first. However, in the meantime I had married and we lived in rented accommodation in Budapest, and for this reason I wanted to go to the capital – but I only received a teaching post in Isaszeg. My train to Isaszeg departed at 7 each morning and I got back home at 8 pm. Together with my 20 commuting colleagues, we did all the school work during the rail journey adding up to several hours. It was especially difficult being a teacher in Isaszeg because as a nationality village and due to estate relationships, they only married between themselves. By the 1960s, due to inbreeding marriages, the intellectual retardation among the population had reached such a level that a special needs class had to be initiated alongside virtually every school class. I became head of just such a class. It was extremely exhausting and I could bear it for only two years. Interestingly, this is where I met my colleague Éva, who later became a Carmelite nun with the name sister Amáta in Mayerling, Austria. Emperor Franz Joseph had the mansion where his son Rudolf and his lover, Mária Vetsera, committed suicide converted into a convent. The nuns living in extremely strict asceticism pray each day also for their spiritual salvation.

“After Isaszeg, I finally found myself in Budapest, although not teaching but as a curator at the Museum of Military History. For this job I also completed – later on – studies at the librarian department at ELTE university. I spent many years there, receiving an award, too, the National Defence Medal of Merit.”

Here it is. I can see that instead of the letter ‘i’ in Rákóczi, they wrote it with a ‘y’.

“A minor fault given that this award is very rarely presented to a civilian, not to mention a woman. (laughs)

“Later on, I worked at the Semmelweis Museum of Medical History and Library, where for many years József Antall, later prime minister, was the director. After I retired I was awarded the Zsámboky János Prize for my work in medical history, particularly research into the career of Ignác Semmelweis and the translation of his works into Hungarian.”

How did your parents’ fate resolve itself? Were there any bad feelings between the Bukovina Szeklers and descendants of Germans?
“In 1951, they had the opportunity to buy another house, by that time the migration wave had eased, everyone had found their new place in society, even those few Germans who remained in Tolna county. I found that these antagonisms also smoothed out over the course of decades. While strolling through Bonyhád I saw written over one of the gateways: ‘Salát van gabható’ (roughly, ‘Lettice for sail’). In my mind, this phrase symbolizes coexistence, fraternity. If the ‘Hitlerites’ had never come about, then we would have escaped that extremely miserable period lasting a few years.”

The global pandemic is virtually the single topic of conversation these days. It makes life very difficult, and not only physically but mentally, too. Some are beset by anxiety, some become apathetic or are frightened because they feel they have lost control over their own lives. What is in your soul and on your mind these days? 

It is shattering for me when I have to face destruction, death and pain, particularly when this afflicts the most vulnerable, for instance the elderly or children. Over the past few weeks and months, we have had to face up to our own fragility, we have experienced something tragic. But I believe that this tragedy is at the same time an opportunity to rethink our lives, to closely examine those things that are truly important for us, as well as to recognize those ingrained bad habits and attitudes that we must change.

The pandemic is a massive ‘exclamation mark’, a powerful warning to humanity. It indicates that an era has closed, the 20th century. Just as the outbreak of the First World War signalled the closure of the 19th century.

This is the moment for us to slow down and listen to our planet, our own conscience, the word, the message of a higher being. I truly hope that we will learn the lesson, take the experiences to heart, reformulate priorities and change our attitude towards life.

How are you and your family handling the self-isolation period? What kind of activities do you do together at home?

I am in a privileged position because all my children – from the youngest to the oldest – are together with me, under one roof, we meet every day, we don’t have to be separated, and of course I am with my wife, Veronica as well. I make every effort to broaden my knowledge, I read and study a lot, and listen to music. More than anything else, I try to spend as much time as possible with my children, talking to them about anything.

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Kép: Almud Music

I now have better insight as my wife looks after our young daughter, Virginia, as she helps her doing homework, and they play or have fun.

Then there is the work of the foundation that bears my name, the Andrea Bocelli Foundation, which takes up much of our time and energy.

I know that you love sports, particularly riding. You now have to forego this.

I can’t wait to go riding along the seashore again, and I hope that this will happen very soon. You know, I believe that performers are at the same time athletes. They must train every day to keep their bodies, their minds and their vocal chords in shape, and they have to stay healthy. Happily, both my wife and my children are also very pro-sport, we all try to stay healthy. I work out, for example, with a skipping rope, I use an exercise bike and run on the treadmill.

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Kép: Almud Music

Seven years ago, I asked you about the abovementioned Andrea Bocelli Foundation and its goals. What is the biggest mission of the Foundation today and what projects are you most proud of?

ABF has grown enormously in seven years, we have completed nearly 20 major projects and we are extremely proud of our achievements so far. The aim of the Foundation remains maintaining the heritage of contacts, binding those relationships of trust, which we created with many people over the course of years. The Foundation functions as a living laboratory, it comprises many people with close bonds imbued with the love of music, who are united against deep poverty in the developing countries and who are able to brave the challenges of social environmental impacts.

In 2016, central Italy was rocked by an earthquake; the powerful temblors resulted in several thousand deaths and some settlements were totally devastated. We took aid to these settlements and we did everything we could to repair the damage.

We also placed particular emphasis on education: we had so-called seismic-proof schools built in record time.

With the help of wonderful teachers and professional equipment, we are trying to create the optimal conditions for young gifted individuals. We also involve art and music in their everyday lives. ABF has been engaged in the fight against coronavirus from the start: we launched the ABF – With you, for the COVID-19 emergency fundraising campaign. We are using GoFundMe, one of the world’s largest platforms, for the donation campaign. We have been able to use the funds raised to supply Italian health-workers with appropriate personal protective equipment and we have donated four ventilator machines to the hospital in Camerino.

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Kép: Almud Music

Italy has also launched an international image campaign that you joined.

The Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation launched the #WeAreItaly #StayTunedOnIt in order to promote Italy during these difficult days. I myself and many other Italian artists joined this initiative. Through video messages and in other ways we try to ensure that the world does not lose contact with Italian culture. Italian cultural institutions are popularizing many projects that provide Italian and international audiences with very special, virtual cultural entertainment.

As an artist I believe it is my duty to take part in musical events and initiatives that contribute to the welfare of people and that give joy and hope.

Music remains a remarkable, sensitive instrument, precisely because it can express the inexpressible. It is a universal language that teaches us to sense the beauty and wonders of life. If we do not hesitate to seek – and share – this beauty and tiny marvels, then we can change ourselves and the world.

Do you believe that man can change? Do you believe that humanity, which over the millennia has been the cause of so much bloodshed, can make a change for the better in the not so distant future?

I am an optimist. Easter always reminds us that rebirth is truly possible – for believers and non-believers alike. The Resurrection proves that life triumphs over destruction. We must put an end to the destructive, dangerous, unhealthy, degenerate games. The current situation provides just such an opportunity; furthermore, that we improve empathy in ourselves, that we care for those who are around us, who are important for us, and we wake up to the realization of what a privilege it is to be able to live together and to touch one another.

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Kép: Almud Music

As a man of faith, I think that the mind of mankind is too small to understand the logic of God. Yet it is to that complex logic that I entrust myself, heart and soul, every single day.

I saw your May and June tour dates on your website. In this respect, too, you appear to be optimistic.

Many of my tours and concerts are booked years in advance, but whether I can hold them depends, naturally enough, on governmental provisions. As soon as I get the green light, I will return to singing. I must admit, I greatly miss the direct contact with the public, that ‘soul-to-soul’ energy apparent in big venues.

If you possessed any superpower to change one thing in the world, what would it be?

It would be wonderful if a new generation could live in a world without war, where good could overcome evil, and where man would be able – through technical development and medical advancements – to do away with pain. In fact, this is far from being impossible. I think that if we come together and work hard, all our dreams can come true.

Do you get on well together as brothers?

Norbert: “Very well would be a more precise formulation although Laci certainly remembers times when I didn’t let him play on the computer because as the older one, the keyboard was mine. In my defence, at 14 the two-year age gap appeared a lot but before or after this, we did virtually everything together.”

László: “We also started playing music together. I always looked up to Norbi and, with a slight delay, copied his hobbies. Roller-skating, too, in which he made it to the ‘escape from the backflip’ trick, and then quit while he was still ahead... Then we checked out dancing but even then he was not attracted to simple ballroom but rather break dance.”

When did music come into the picture?

Norbert: “I must have been around 15. To start off we tried to play familiar solos on acoustic guitar by ear. We were mainly influenced by English language music from the 2000s, from Linkin Park to Britney Spears.”

László:

“Then a friend showed us how to play chords and a new world opened up. We learnt eight or so a day from the internet, our fingers were all blistered but we felt we had to do it!

“We also went to a guitar class with philosophy teacher László György, where Bob Dylan, Bryan Adams and R.E.M. songs were played. This kind of musical upbringing defined our tastes”

What sort of kids were you?

Norbert: “As soon as we learnt to walk, we left home at sunrise and only returned home at sunset.”

László: “Whatever we started, we gave it 120%. At the beginning we were thinking of a band, we wanted to be international stars. With our own songs, calculatingly. When we got our first guitar from our mother and her sibling, Norbi also acquired a drum set. We installed them in the first floor apartment and to the delight of the neighbours we started rehearsing. We knew even then that I would be the bass guitarist, even though at the time we didn’t have a bass guitar.”

Norbert: “And even then we were writing our own songs at a time when we couldn’t play the music of other bands properly!”

László: “The first song Norbi wrote was titled Big Adventure. It was about life being a great journey.”

You have played together with Szilárd, the drummer, from the beginning, and the others in the band are locals, too.

László: “We thought that musical skills could be learnt so that ‘finding common ground’, that as people we should get on well, was more important. We thought that we would grow into everything else and this is how it worked out.”

Norbert:

“We chose friends to make music with, not musicians that we became friends with.

“This was important because we spent more time together than with our families, that is, we are ‘family’. We look after each other and back each other up.”

When you set out on a career, what ‘civil’ jobs did you have?

Norbert: “I taught dance, I made doors and windows, and both of us were storemen in a drinks depot. Our guitarist Ata is a real globetrotter, he has been a waiter on cruise ships and run a tourist office. Szilárd worked with Laci in a workshop making organ pipes. Zsombi, our accordionist, is the only one who has a paper saying he is a musician, and he still gives private lessons to students to this day. When we decided to invest even more energy into the band, I was the first to resign from my job on a now-or-never basis.”

You spent 18 month to two years in Transylvania picking up experience in music, let’s say.

Norbert: “We progressed gradually, living the real rock n’ roll life like you see in the films. The five of us travelled around in a packed estate car. We called up pubs and radio stations to see whether they would allow us to play or air our songs. Zsombi joined when we were looking for a keyboard player but his instrument wouldn’t fit in the car. ‘So then play violin’ we told him, but that resulted in audio feedback everywhere. This is how the accordion came about, which he learnt just for us, and it has now become the band’s trademark.”

Was moving to Hungary a big change?

Norbert: “We didn’t want to appear on the market without quality material so as part of the Cseh Tamás Programme we cut our first disc and arrived in Hungary with it, where we had to start everything all over again. It didn’t matter that we had played to 2000 people at home when here we had an audience of max. 50. True, we had more than 100 concerts under our belt by then. Virtually every week we drove the 750 km from Gyergyószentmiklós to Budapest in a way that the bass guitar lay like a table in the laps of the three people sitting in the back. The drums were packed into each other but as the car got bigger, so we carried more stuff around.”

What sort of reception did you get in the mother country as Transylvanians?

László: “We never did anything so as to be treated as Transylvanians.

“Obviously we bring musical things, things that are part of our system of values that we are proud to advocate, but we don’t want to make anything out of the fact that we come from beyond the border.

“It is particularly good that our first song didn’t get a great reception straight away, so a single hit didn’t place pressure on us.”

Where do you draw inspiration for Bagossy songs?

Norbert: “Generally I write the lyrics and melody by myself and if I consider it good enough I show Laci who puts together the scoring. Luckily we are on the same wavelength, he senses what the song needs and what else I conceived in it.”

László: “Obviously we draw inspiration from foreign productions because the British and American benchmark will always be the benchmark. Sometimes Norbi tells me to check out the solutions used in, for example, the latest number by Shawn Mendes and I understand what he is talking about, but our final result will still be completely different.

“Every song has its own little life. You can’t integrate something without making it specific.”

Norbert: “The Hungarian language itself is special. For example, prolongation of the vowels is not my thing therefore I pack more syllables into the lines than a foreign band. There is far more emotion in our songs than speculation, although we like experimenting and obviously our taste shifts as things go along.”

I suspect that after a while you had to relocate your base to Budapest, or at least in part.

Norbert: “We said about half a year, a year ago that it hadn’t even struck us that we were already living in Hungary. I reckon we will be dual residents for the rest of our lives.”

László: “At the beginning we didn’t think we could live in Budapest, after all we come from a small town and the contrast was huge. But now each corner here, too, has a memory or experience and this makes it feel like home. This is home here and that is home there as well.  When we go back home we value the silence, when we come back a whole ton of opportunities open up again. We are happy to come and happy to go.”

How are you treated in Szekler land?

Norbert:

“They are pleased about our success and in our case it is perhaps not true that you cannot be a prophet in your own land. We owe a debt of gratitude to those people there and the fact that we have only about 15% of our concerts there is how it worked out given the distribution of Hungarians.”

That said, you recently shot a clip in your homeland as part of the Road Movie project…

Norbert: “This is the first time we wrote a song to commission, I’m Coming Back, and the final result says a lot about us. Attila Árpa directed it. We show the country at home so that it is not in summer, nor winter like other videos, but in a part of the year when we receive a little warmth yet one can feel it is cold, too. As the lyrics put it: ‘winter is warm when heated from home’. It is possible to scratch one’s head about whether a man can become a wolf or not because we left the end of the clip open, giving space for the viewer and audience to think further.”

Where do you go to relax?

Norbert: “We were all brought up in the mountains, we are people close to nature, we can relax in nature as well. In Hungary, for example, close to the Balaton, or in Transylvania, of course. The point is to withdraw to an environment where we can hide a bit from the world.”

What has changed in you now that tens of thousands are following you?

László: “It places responsibility on our shoulders because it matters how we use the enormous attention that has been directed towards us.

“If you can communicate to twenty, thirty, forty thousand people, suddenly what you say carries weight.”

For instance, ecological awareness. Among your merchandise there are ‘green gifts’ and you will have a tree-planting scheme as well. How else would you like to influence people?

László: “Finally, environmentalism is a sensible fashion! We will never forget the musical evenings in our childhood which were followed by conversations frequently lasting late into the night. These stirred in us empathy towards the thoughts of others. We apparently talked philosophically about nothing but we still got closer to something through this. I believe that the songs are also like a conversation. You listen to them, they say something to you for two weeks, then you put them in your pocket and take them out later and they already say something different to you. These sorts of ‘conversations’ can bring about huge development emotionally. And this is not only relevant for our music but for music in general. If it makes you shiver, if you get goosebumps from just a part, that means the message has got home.”

The experience of our fragility and vulnerability provides the perfect opportunity for us, women and men, to once again turn towards each other. To affirm once again what always was in times of great trouble: the true, final refuge that is capable of providing actual and effective protection is the smaller and larger family. The more extensive the family network is, the more it is able to offer protection, but only when its adamantine core (more often than not a man and woman living in a binding relationship) is able to link together all its constituent parts in a loving relationship.

How many counter-interests are used in an attempt to cover up or refute the fact that a family arising out of a committed partnership of a man and a woman is the stem cell of society, and there is no alternative!

An entire political industry is at work to break down the family, claiming that marriage is a fake relationship that oppresses women and that the family hearth is in truth a powder keg where children only receive lovelessness. They flat out claim that a large part of worldly violence occurs in family homes. We know, however, that the greatest part of all-human love is manifested in families, and globally the family is the principal zone of safety – and still we have a tendency to accept statements such as these, or at least let them pass without comment.

But why do we fall for this? Perhaps because there is no perfect partnership, the man-woman duality in truth frequently wobbles and because of this we have a bad conscience. Occasionally a relationship does in fact degenerate, the solution to which, in the better case, is divorce, and in a poorer case actually becomes a source of fire in the partnership, which is virtually irreconcilable. However, relationships that are just wobbling can be fixed with inner will and external help.

But how can a man and a woman have the will to take action for their own spiritual well-being, to work constantly to improve their relationship?

After all, in patriarchal societies marriage was such a normative part of communal life from which it was forbidden to quit (at least officially and primarily for women), so it gave no encouragement to improve the relationship of couples, at best just to endure. In social structures building on individual freedom, which frees up the termination of all forms of coexistence, there is similarly not sufficient incentive to achieve a quality relationship because in a throw-away culture of consumption it is easier to swap a partner than understand him/her. One has to add to this the fact that today, a large part of adult generations grew up in fragmented families, the absentee father is a particularly painful wound for them, and on top of this their parents could spend barely any time with them due to the demand to make a living. Thus they only know of ‘love until the grave’, the myths of unconditional trust, from romantic films. Many have no positive relationship role models, thus they also don’t know that they should deal not only with the wishes of the body but the soul, too. With the passing of the first passion and heightened emotions, they experience the inner needs of their partner as claims or selfishness, and they are unable to resolve their conflicts.

Even though today we stand a far better chance of finding a solution than at any time in preceding centuries.

Every human community has good and bad partnership experiences of generations and using the insights given by modern psychology it is possible to process these and make them useful. If, moreover, we can list alongside this examples of couples who have managed to establish well-functioning patterns of coexistence across decades, then it becomes evident to every young person starting off from a disadvantaged situation that relationship happiness and satisfaction exist not only in romantic films but in reality as well. Good relationships begin with will and are realized through constant attention and acts.

Another way of putting it is that even if we didn’t inherit good examples, a good relationship can still be learnt!

Just as today we have on average more scientific knowledge than our predecessors did, so we also have more knowledge about human relationships. Just as the state of our teeth demands that we keep a constant check on them, so we can prevent decay right at the beginning of the problem, so our spiritual life, our relationships, also require monitoring from time to time, with the help of experts (and, of course, friends and experienced acquaintances). Starting from primary school and going all the way to university, everybody – in accordance with age – should develop those human skills which help their disposition turn in a positive direction, help build their relationships and help assertive social validation. This would certainly result in an increase in the number of stronger, more acceptable and more loving relationships, which would then give a greater sense of security to growing children and cause fewer psychological defects.

In my view, the loss of trust, the shaking of man-woman relations that can be experienced today is no greater than what existed in more covert forms in earlier times. It is just that the social ‘exclusion’ constantly covered as a topic by the media is more powerful and dramatic, thus the role-seeking and adjustment to the necessarily changed social challenges of both genders occurs in greater desperation.

The women’s rights movement, that is, feminism, was not the cause but just a necessary consequence of changes in external circumstances. In the past 150 years, we have approached that ideal equality of rights of the members of the two genders that is symbolized in the following line from the Bible’s story of creation: ‘And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.’ Of course, even seen from afar the route that led here was not always perfect and worthy of humankind, but the situation of the two genders is more just now than it was one hundred years ago. Given the warped, unjust gender relations of previous ages, today some men – particularly those who do not live in protective loving relationships – perceive increased equality as an alienating loss of prestige, while at the same time some women – of course, particularly those who do not live in protective loving relationships – still look on men as the enemy, or consider their new situation to be a depressing set of expectations. And this balance of power is tipping, even to the extremes, which makes it difficult to re-establish a healthy equilibrium.

The branch of feminism that is family-centric and not extremist (looking on men as not being the guilty party and something that has to be overcome) still has work to do: until the woman bringing up her children at home, or caring for elderly parents at home, does not receive equal moral and financial respect from society as a working father, we cannot be satisfied. While these family and social jobs are not shared between women and men, then many are never going to understand how valuable and important they are. While certain careers offer woman fewer opportunities and lower pay, we still have things to do.

At the same time, the feeling of disorientation of men is completely understandable because they are increasingly unable to live their inherited roles and they constantly have to adjust to new circumstances.

This leads to uncertainty and tension, which frequently contributes to the deterioration of relationships. To make matters worse, today there are already policies that favour women due to their disadvantages. For example, during a divorce the current legal practice is to assert an exaggerated advantage to women in the area of bringing up children. Then again, measures and treaties designed to reduce violence in relationships take virtually no notice of violence committed against men. Early retirement for women after 40 years of work is so discriminative that women themselves are sometimes ashamed. And it is inexplicable why we don’t deal with the serious situation signalled by the school dropout rate of men, their poorer state of health and earlier mortality than women. Men often look to women for a remedy to the situation while women also are constantly struggling with challenges. This is why well-intentioned men’s movements are to be welcomed.

Apparently, we men and women are not in an easy situation. In truth, however, we are the possessors of massive opportunities!

We stand on the threshold of an age when finally we can establish, as equal parties, with equality of opportunity, free choice and more psychological knowledge than ever before, responsible, lasting, joyous relationships, we can work together in workplaces, and we can participate in public life. Let’s not allow ourselves to become alienated towards each other due to frustrations deriving from the search for roles and occasional failures. There is no other way than patient understanding and providing mutual support to one another.

Are there birthdays that have been particularly memorable?

I remember, for example, the fiftieth, it was at Easter, a beautiful spring day, the whole family sat under the lime tree and there was some sort of heavenly peace. Then my sixtieth. We always have close family birthdays, but that time my son Samu decided to set my song cycle Towards Wholeness to music and they performed it. This was repeated on my seventieth. Childhood birthdays all merge into one. Then I remember that many times it was not easy to find the occasion when the children were young, primarily due to my travelling, and today it is even more complicated because we have to adjust to the schedules of the children.

Do these celebrations represent a moment for stocktaking, a special thanksgiving for you?

Thanksgiving and contemplation are not linked to birthdays; as I get older, I need them more and more.

I cannot break my life down into periods or milestones, nor in relation to Kaláka either, I just feel that everything developed and worked out naturally.

You don’t even remember the moment when you first felt that you had become a musician from being a uni student who played music? After all, this was not evident from the beginning.

It was far from evident, rather a swirling transition. I was in my second year when, in 1969, Kaláka was formed and rapidly the emphasis switched to music-making. We were invited to the TV, to the countryside and my teachers also valued this work. By the time I graduated we were a band travelling abroad and had already won a few minor awards. My meeting with my wife, Katalin Kőváry, is also connected with Kaláka, I met her when she was a theatre director, we had been invited to go there for a performance. We married in 1972. She also contributed a lot to our work, she gave us a new perspective with regard to stage presence and performance of poems.

Thus, gradually music, theatre and poetry rolled into my life. By the time I graduated, there was not even a faint chance of making a civil engineer out of me.

Are work and private life still difficult to separate in your family?

I still always take a little work with me even on vacation. After the 50th anniversary of Kaláka we travelled with my wife to Zanzibar, to the ‘paradise’ with perfect climate. A small island with great hotels and very nice, good people. Of course, even in the midst of complete relaxation, resting by the sea, swimming or reading, you think about future plans and new ideas are born, that are either realised or forgotten. We were truly lucky to also see a beautiful full moon. That always grabs me, but there, when it is over the sea, among the palm trees, it is even more magical.

Your children have since become closely associated with the stage, Dorka became an actress and Samu a composer. Does everyone bring their professional ideas to family gatherings, too?

None of us have a nine-to-five job. When the kids are here for Sunday lunch, music, performances, festivals and filming are woven into the occasion, as everyone shares their current projects with us all. But that doesn’t mean we only talk shop.

Do you have any memories of your children surprising you in some way when they were little?

Dorka was still quite young when I noticed how much she stood out in the choir. As a child, Samu surprised me with his honesty and trust.

For example, on a trip to Transylvania, at the Red Lake I told him that if we threw a coin into the water it would come back, like at the Trevi Fountain in Rome, and he trusted me so much that he took it literally. We threw the coin in and he waited for it to come back. That kind of unconditional trust touches a person.

Did they change you?

I feel like starting a family is so one-sided, but children definitely change a parent.

Do you think that, at 70 a person knows themselves better? Or do they have doubts?

I know myself to be an instinctive person, both in friendship and in finance, I listen to ideas...

Meaning that you're not a very speculative person in the first place, you don’t think about that a lot either?

Well that would not be completely true, I do have things that require a long thought process. For example I wrote the song Családi kör (Family Circle) over twenty years. The Tíz példázat (Ten Parables), the poems of Zolitán Sumonyi, which we’ll sing at the Castle Garden Bazaar in April, just came right.

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Photo: Tamás Páczai

Can you tell me which is the trait or talent you are most grateful for?

For example, the fact that I am not very strict in business, I do not need my every single moment and action to be profitable. If we like a record, we release it and, if we happen to make a loss on it, then we will profit on the next one. If we apply for and don’t get funding, we create without it. I would feel bad if an important project didn't happen because of that. However, I have no inhibitions about it either, that is, I am not ashamed to announce at the concert that a record is available, I warmly recommend it because we made it for you, to make you happy, to have it! I don’t hide our light under a bushel, I display it. That was very much about business, but there are other aspects to it. If someone has something to offer, then give it, do it!

Amy Károlyi said a long time ago that, when we said we didn't want to write for the desk drawer, it didn't hurt to be able to pull out that desk drawer and have something in it for when you just have nothing else to show at that moment.

Of course, in my case, there may already be so much in there that it is impossible to realise throughout my lifetime. And in the meantime, the world has also changed a lot. Sándor Kányádi always said that you have to move to the internet, that in fact, there are almost no desk drawers anymore. Older people complain that people don't read poetry, while young people simply put them online and read them there, too. János Lackfi and I have now uploaded our song Himnusz az égi-földi kenyérről (Anthem on heavenly-earthly bread), which is available for everyone to listen to. The Lutheran Church made it the song of the Year of Holy Communion. We wrote it so that it could easily become a congregation song and I am glad that it is well received by the other denominations as well. Gábor Smidéliusz , my brother Vilmos  and I have already sung it during a radio broadcast service.

Are there any New Testament stories or parables that are harder for you to accept or understand?

Everything is multifaceted and I don't know of any situation that I would completely reject. Of course, there are uncertainties and doubts in everyone. Marcell Jankovics said that the believer and the atheist are not opposites, as the atheist is also a believer who believes that there is no God.

Doubt is the opposite of faith. At the same time, sometimes one can doubt even basic truths, because the whole story of Jesus is difficult to accept with common sense, Mary, too, was frightened and Joseph also had to be encouraged.

Man, for example, sometimes experiences resurrection only as a symbol, a projected image. How many are really able to embrace the Resurrection? Reason cannot, only faith can.

Did you ever try to explain that to your children?

Not me! They attended religious education classes. It is a great invention of the apostle Paul that we have a corruptible body here on earth and an incorruptible body, and that we should not confuse the two. He must have said that before reading the Gospel. That contrasts with the belief that Jesus was resurrected in an actual body and met with people. If that is another dimension, does it also apply to me? I think only faith or art can answer the really difficult questions.

I often remember that the name ’Kaláka’ is also the motto of your whole life. Family, friendship, community, profession and entertainment are inextricably intertwined, you ask and accept from everyone what they can give, and you are not miserly with what you have, either.

We can thank uncle Zoli, the grandfather of István Mikó for the Kaláka name. There was no other name to rival it. It truly contains work, fun, community, and folklore... In the beginning, when not everyone had their own more definite style, we often figured everything out together. Things still evolve in the community today, but we bring ideas in a much more mature form. In fact, it all consists of human relationships, those have defined the final forms in my life as well.

If we couldn’t laugh or have dinner with Kaláka, then nothing would be work. Bands don’t break up based on what chord you struck or what note you sang off key. Conceptual differences also collide very quickly and then they never come together. 

I am lucky. I can handle the publishing, the festivals, the organisation of the band, the independent initiatives (as, fortunately, everyone in Kaláka has independent works) and the biblical albums and it doesn’t cause me any tension. I really don't like arguing. Maybe it’s also related to my asthma because once or twice in the past, when I worked myself up, I started to gasp, so maybe that’s why I’m a very compromising person.

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Photo: Emmer László

That is not necessarily easy in the art world... there are those who are unwilling to perform together on the same stage or even at the same event.

It never gets that far with me, I'll tell you sooner if I have an issue. In my life, I may have ‘fallen out’ with two people. I must say I don’t have anyone who is displeased with me or, at least, I don’t know of anyone. At church, there is always too little time available for me to remember who I should forgive. The people I work with are also important human beings. I feel like they are part of our lives and it would be hard for me to turn someone away who is approaches me.

In Kapolcs, in the Valley of Arts, after pushing through the ten days in the Kaláka Poetry Centre, you always visit the surrounding programmes during the day or even in the evening. You make time for everyone if they stop you, and many do. How do you maintain your curiosity after a tiring festival day?

I'm interested. I don't have to convince myself. I monitor the events of the nearby Vera Harcsa, Muharay and Folk centres for example, but I also always go over to Taliándörögd to see the exhibitions. Just because it interests me to see how others do it differently. I feel that that openness is mutual. We have already given joint concerts with many of our artist friends. Unforgettable, is the surprise concert given for our 40th birthday, and now a joint concert with Budapest Bár and their soloists for the fiftieth. It caused me great joy this autumn when underground bands of musicians younger than our children surprised us with a record containing Kaláka adaptations, it is titled ‘De jó elhagyni magamat (It is good to let myself go)’.

How are you preparing for your seventieth birthday?

I am currently preparing for the Castle Garden Bazaar, where we will be performing the Teljesség felé (Towards completeness) concert with Márta Sebestyén, Ferenc Sebő, Miklós Both, Mókus, Bea Palya, Szilvia Bognár, Ági Szalóki, which we performed 10 years ago and which, according to the current status, is to be held on 26 April, as it has not yet been cancelled. Such a joint singing event is fantastic! Again, that is being organised by my son Samu, and will be the 13th performance.