Is there any particular personal motivation that guided you towards researching Trianon?
“As a theatre critic, my father spent a lot of time with theatres beyond the border. I had my first passport when just three months old, when we went to see theatres in Oradea (Nagyvárad), Sfântu Gheorghe (Sepsiszentgyörgy) and Satu Mare (Szatmárnémeti). It happened that nearly the entire company of the Satu Mare Northern Theatre camped in our garden – these were great intellectual meetings so I was sensitized to the subject.”

What do we call Trianon: an unhealing wound, a bottomless well of painful memories, which can never be buried?
“The saying goes that with the passage of two or three generations, historical events cool down and become cold memory. Compared to this, the memory of Trianon is still alive today, partly because in the past century around one million people crossed into Hungary from the areas cut away, in several waves. When reckoned together with their descendants, this means that perhaps two to three million people are living in Hungary today who have some sort of association with the divested areas. In itself, the very existence of Hungarians beyond the border regenerates that sense of loss. This trauma should have been processed – only, it could not be worked through in the 20th century. In the interwar period, the good Hungarian was the one who said everything, or at least the majority, should be returned, while after 1945 this was a forbidden subject.”

How can one speak about Trianon today? Many are of the belief that with the customs union and a unifying Europe, it is no longer worth talking about Trianon.
“We have to find those turns of phrase that allow us to talk about it even at international forums.

“The world is not going in the direction where those types of argument such as the Holy Crown and one thousand years have any influence, because this manner of speech is currently not valid in the world – it is possible, however, that in a few decades it will be. Today, it is permitted to speak of minority issues, autonomy and linguistic rights. Every age has its own language.”

Now that the question of autonomy has been raised, to what degree should this be dealt with in relation to the commemorative year?
“Autonomy is important and necessary, but for example the issues of Transylvanian Hungarians are not going to be resolved if, at some stage, there is regional autonomy in the land of the Szeklers. Approximately one half of Transylvanian Hungarians live in Szekler land. The other half do not live there, and they too require institutions, schools, language rights and local government. The majority of Transylvanian Hungarians live in scattered populations, that is, in settlements where they are in the minority, perhaps a minority of under 20%, for example Cluj-Napoca (Kolozsvár), Timisoara (Temesvár) and Arad. Of course, there are forms other than just regional-based autonomy, for example, cultural-based autonomy, or even combinations of the two. But it is already evident that the concept whereby we establish a little Hungary in the land of the Szeklers and from then on everything with be fine, simply does not work.”

Recently, the Trianon speech by Count Albert Apponyi was broadcast on the radio, in which, amongst other topics, he enumerated our losses, primarily from an economic aspect. But it is obvious that the economic losses are not the most painful to bear.
“The human loss hurts most. If the borders had been drawn with just a little more justice, then approximately a half of the some 3.2–3.4 million detached Hungarians could have remained within Hungary. We are talking about 20-30 kilometres. The strip in Slovakia’s upland (Felvidék) that was returned to Hungary in 1938 was, at its widest point, perhaps 60–70 kilometres, but there were parts just 20 kilometres wide. I think that the First Vienna Award established ethnically fair borders; it is another question as to the circumstances in which it came about. There is very frequent mention of the fact that 97% of our pine forests were taken, and the ore mines, but let’s not forget that even at that time we could speak of an open, globalizing economy. It is not essential for one country to have everything – copper mines, salt mines, pine forests – because these things circulate in a functioning global market, it is possible to buy them. The processing industry was here, the mines there, there was a railway and fairly advanced shipping, these things could have been resolved. It is no coincidence that at that time the biggest competitor to the Hungarian grain industry was the rising American market because cereals could easily be shipped over the ocean. But Argentinian beef also started to gain a foothold before the First World War.

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Balázs Ablonczy

“Béla Tomka’s paper on this subject caused somewhat of an outcry. He made two assertions: one was that the greatest pain was not the loss of mineral resources, the second that the Hungarian economy got back on its feet relatively quickly after Trianon. By saying this, he claimed that the economy was able to get over the losses relatively soon. New branches of industry started to appear in the early 1920s: this was the time when the Hungarian textile industry and Hungarian chemical industry began to take off. These boosted the Hungarian economy, which began to drop behind European development during state socialism due to erroneous concepts concerning industrial development and the introduction of a Soviet-style system. Rather, the bigger problem was that the Trianon ruling shattered market sectors that had formed over centuries. Where do we go to the fair? Where do we find ourselves a wife? Where should our children go to school?

“The peace treaty smashed these relatively organically established economic ecosystems and because of this, dead regions came into being on both sides of the border.

“At one time, Fiľakovo (Fülek) hardware was a classy brand. One hundred years later, this once prosperous region has become a part of Slovakia most afflicted by crisis and not only because of the Roma inhabitants and depopulation. Data from ten years earlier: the proportion of diseases of modern civilization among Hungarians in the southern Slovakia region is 40% higher than the Slovak average.”

Could this be one of the long-term knock-on effects of the peace treaty? Weren’t the health consequences noticeable in the short term, that is, almost straight away?
“One can understand from the memoirs of archaeology professor Gyula László that their crossing into Hungary was nothing other than a constant story of illness: typhus epidemic, my mother fell ill, I nearly drowned in the river...

“The body of the nation is sick, and it is as though this would make the individual sick as well. This may appear to be a fanciful interpretation, but falling ill, and not only in memoirs, is a recurring motif.

“I have read a great many housing office applications and everyone details either that the Oláhs (Vlachs or Wallachians) beat them near to death, or they give details of their illnesses. In memoirs there are very many nervous pathologies, many clinical diagnoses rather difficult to determine these days, such as neurasthenia, nervous exhaustion, nervous fatigue. We just don’t know what these diagnoses covered at that time. The mayor of Alba Iulia (Gyulafehérvár) quit the town even before the incursion of the Romanians and he died in a mental asylum in Pest a few years later. Furthermore, the mayor of Bardejov (Bártfa) went mad, as did the mayor of Levoča (Lőcse). There were people who didn’t know what to do once the world around them had collapsed. Thus the great national tragedy appears in day-to-day life, in the stories of everyday people. When we speak of the peace treaty of Trianon, we rarely speak about the fact that the drawing of a line in Paris would have consequences driving a mayor to a breakdown, that Levice (Léva), at one time a thriving market town, would begin to die, and that refugees would suddenly appear in even the smallest Hungarian settlements.”

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What would have happened if… Trianon had never occurred? Where would these contrasts (buried by the peace treaty) have led?
“I don’t think that what would have been, if is not a valid question. I don’t think that we would have been able to sustain historical Hungary in unchanged form over decades. But let’s suppose that things stayed the same: it’s certain that there would have been significant masses of nationalities in the country, and the fact that this country is a multi-ethnic country should be reflected in political rights and language rights. There would have been little chance that the Romanians or Serbs living here would be totally assimilated as Hungarians. On the other hand, the contemporary Hungarian elite was very quick to embrace those Slovaks who were prepared to become Hungarian at least in part.

“The message was that if you become Hungarian, you can become anything: Hungary’s first knight banneret, indeed, the cardinal archbishop of Esztergom.

“After the First World War, Hungary was riven not only by nationality fault lines but there was a peasant-urban tension due to the rapid pace of development and tensions between the emerging Jewish middle class and Christian middle class also appeared. If there had been a coming together, or at least some kind of social cohesion, then in all likelihood it would have been possible to achieve somewhat more favourable borders, partly through armed self defence, or by arranging some kind of political consensus more quickly, and then perhaps the Hungarian peace delegation would have gone to the negotiations earlier – but even that is not certain. Trianon wouldn’t have happened this way, that is, that 3.2 million Hungarians out of 10 million – every third person, a third of the nation – being separated. Thus it is not useless to play with the idea of what would have been, if but it is only suitable for short-term projections and not to outline an alternative history. Here we would be moving into the world of novel-writing.”

Talking about the world of imagination, a whole series of Hungarian films has won international prizes but not one deals with Trianon and the fate of the ‘railway wagon residents’. What is the reason for this? After all, this period is a treasure trove rich in action, twists and turns.
“A while back I was asked to take part in a film club connected to Trianon and the discussion afterwards, and together with the organizers we sweated blood over finding a good, Trianon-related film. There aren’t any. I know of certain film outlines but it appears that there won’t be a film for the anniversary. But there should be, many of them, because the younger generation basically sources its knowledge from movies. The majority of young people acquired their understanding of 1956 from the film ‘Children of Glory’. I am all for such a film, as I am for the idea of a Trianon museum in Budapest, if it is done well. One can no longer win over the young generation with the unveiling of new statues. Other ways have to be found to get information across.”

At present, there are 15,000 names on the database of Trianon refugees made public on the website. More and more stories and family histories are constantly coming in. What can one conclude from these?
“When we published the names of refugees last June, the letters started pouring in. They started scanning grandpa’s diary written in the wagon.

“If there is any sense in historical research, then it is this: making the largely forgotten story of how many people moved to Hungary from the areas cut away after Trianon a common national history.”

What do we learn from the diaries and memoirs?
“I looked at the memoirs – and here I stress not diaries, which are written in the heat of the moment, but memoirs written a bit later – from the point of view of who explained why they came across. This is a very wide spectrum from László Ravasz and professor of archaeology Gyula László to Gyula Gombos, the general factotum of folk literature. (But Pál Jávor, Lola Réz Kosáryné and Ernő Rubik Snr. were also refugees.) I also sought those that reflected on why they remained. It was interesting to discover that there are no single-factor explanations: people never write in their memoirs that they came across because they wanted to stay Hungarian, they always add another reason. I wanted to remain Hungarian… and anyway my wife became ill and she could only be treated in Hungary. I had to leave because my local Hungarian colleagues betrayed me. I had to come because I was fulfilling God’s mission, writes bishop László Ravasz, who was then elected Reformed bishop of Duna-mellék (Danube area) – although it is likely he would have been the next Reformed bishop of Cluj-Napoca. My boss went across, which is why I am staying, writes Farkas Gyalui, deputy director of Cluj-Napoca library, who loathed his superior, Pál Erdélyi.  

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“It is my impression that yet another reason had to be added because the community they left behind criticized them: ‘You left us behind!’, while the community in Hungary criticized them because ‘you came across, leaving you own community in the lurch, you deserted your post and came here as a useless mouth’. ‘Those who left were not part of us / because if they were part of us, they would not have left’ – Sándor Kányádi wrote in the 1980s in his poem ‘Song of the Chronicler’. This is a very harsh statement but it is possible to draw a continuum all the way to Károly Kós’s ‘Crying Word’, where he says that anyone of us who went is a traitor to the nation.”

What became of the arrivals from beyond the border? How were they absorbed and assimilated into the mother country’s society?
“Between the two world wars, there was an irredentist, revisionist cult, but people were not in favour of having refugees appear in public physically or literary-wise. Somehow they were absorbed and this opens an interesting research question. In the early 1920s there was a programme where the state, despite the poor economic situation, built flats by the thousand in Szombathely, Miskolc, Budapest – one such example is the Nagy-Pongrác estate for refugee civil servants, where even the church tower was given Transylvanian-like motifs. In Szentimre garden city of Budapest’s XVIII district, the names of streets and squares refer to areas broken away: Hargita (Harghita county in Romania) Square is the central square, but there is a Sepsiszentgyörgy Street, Selmecbánya Street, and the designs of houses also bear witness to this. This estate was built for refugee functionaries in the 1930s. The refugees were located slightly away from the town centre and they were pushed to the fringes in public consideration, too. As the leader of the Pongrác estate association put it in the 1930s: ‘Here we are suspended between village and town, like Mohammed’s coffin’.

“We can see that the whole estate is an enclosure, delineated by the railway line on three sides and a tram line on the fourth. But if we are to reckon how many people these estates were home to, the number comes to just a few tens of thousands. It is apparent from documentation on Auguszta estate that the residents were subject to regular checks by the authorities: they were constantly badgered about fire safety, not without reason since the wooden houses covered with roofing felt were frequently going up in smoke.

“I think the reason the matter of refugees disappeared from public attention in the 1920s was because the government greatly feared the arrival of a new revolutionary wave since here was a mass of dissatisfied, highly skilled people.

“At the level of political loyalty, the fact that somebody was a refugee was a positive sign –since they came because they were good Hungarians – but as a mass, Hungarian society did not integrate these people. There is no refugee party, there are no films about the refugees, and those literary works that do deal with their case never entered the literary canon. If we examine individual career paths, it appears that by the second half of the 1920s the life of the majority of these people had come right somehow or other. Even if they hadn’t regained their earlier standard of living, still as regards their social status and position they had found their place again. But how precisely this happened, and whether the state assisted them in this, is very difficult to say today. These people were primarily absorbed by state administration, strangely enough appearing in the judicial system to the greatest proportion: more than a half of judges and prison guards were born beyond the border.”

Finally, doesn’t the phenomenon of globalization represent some comfort for the painful memories of Trianon?

“If we look at the situation 30 years ago, we find that compared to those days the Hungarian national minorities are now in a better legal and educational position. At the same time, the example of sub-Carpathia or Ukraine also reveals that this is a fragile situation.

“I know of only one choice, that is, that the Hungarian government gets involved in certain types of problems irrespective of political standpoint. Hungary must keep watching what is happening with the Hungarians in the Ukraine, or how they are treated and what laws are drafted in sub-Carpathia. There are some encouraging signs, for example the Ukrainian president of the republic said a few words in Hungarian in his New Year speech, which is a fine gesture but the question of what follows remains open. One could say how petty-minded that we are picking on the Ukrainians with regard to NATO partnership or EU accession. It may be that this is not a very sympathetic standpoint for very many people but the Hungarian state has to pay attention to this, the matter of Hungarian minorities is an important issue. It is possible to get the West accustomed to the idea that these are our preferences, different from theirs. At least at the margins of decisions it should come up that if minority rights are restricted, then the Hungarians become nervous and they will throw a spanner in the works.”

Boglárka: “Zsófi must have been three, Kata six and Dani nine when we suddenly thought it would be great to have a fourth child. However, a further pregnancy would have represented a huge burden. Due to a genetic disease, it was not even sure that I could give birth so at the beginning of our marriage we made it clear that if things worked out this way, then we would adopt. After three children we felt we could handle another.”

János: “It took a year for us to get all the official paperwork together. The preparatory course was held at the Ágacska Foundation. During the course, certain aspects of adoption were raised that we had never even thought of. A person is liable to just brush it off by saying: we adopt a child and that’s that, what’s so complicated. However, they removed the rose-tinted spectacles from us and this was extremely useful.”

What do you mean?

János: “They spoke a lot about motivation.

“For example, if a couple want to adopt merely to replace somebody, instead of just adopting a person, that is dangerous. In the same way, if we are solely thinking in ‘charitable’ terms, and we do not feel the deep-seated urge to adopt, then we shouldn’t say yes.

“Families are sought for children who were born from an unwanted pregnancy, that is why even new-borns are damaged, and older ones even more so. However, adoption is forever, as the name implies (in Hungarian, ‘örökbefogadás’ which is literally ‘receiving forever’). In adoption, there is no such thing as ‘if we don’t get on well then I’ll send the child back and ask for the next one in case things work out better’.”

Boglárka: “Anybody who excludes the adoption of a child of Gypsy extraction from the outset should really consider whether they are truly ready for adoption. The fact is, if they exclude somebody purely on the basis of racial affiliation, then they will not be able to accept the child’s less appealing personal traits. We heard a lot about attachment, which is very important for the child to be able to fit into the family without harm. For example, the child who runs to you at first sight and hugs your leg and begs you, ‘Take me home!’, probably cannot attach. There is a danger that in that moment when there is conflict, he/she will go away with the next person, or as an adult he/she will be unable to form a lasting partnership.”

So, the process started. What came next?

Boglárka: “In October 2015, we received all the papers. At the very end of November we got a phone call that there was a little boy on the other side of the country. First we saw a poor photograph and a misinterpreted case history, and we had to say yes or no to that. We clarified the clinical picture and we thought it would not be possible to come to a decision on the basis of a photograph. We indicated that we would like to meet him.”

János: “Zsolt was left in the hospital by his birth mother, from where he first went to foster parents and then at five months he was given to another family. In his case, it was a secret adoption, that is, we were not allowed to meet the biological parents, but still we managed to piece together some of what had happened. It is certain that it was a major break for Zsolt when at the age of barely six months he was moved from one foster home to another.

“We also know that the family we collected Zsolt from loved him enormously and brought him up as if he were their son, but since adoption does not come with any financial support, only for foster parent status, they voluntarily gave him up.”

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Photo: Tamás Páczai

Boglárka: “In early December we met them at the local child welfare agency. This is when they were hit by the realization that Zsolt would be taken from them. Then they did their utmost that this wouldn’t happen. They immediately said: ‘You can see that he is a Gypsy, can’t you?’ They were themselves Roma. This didn’t bother us because we were confident that this is how it would be. After this there was a little delay but because Zsolt would have been taken away from them anyway, we didn’t want to withdraw. We had merely half an hour with him at the first meeting. We knew we couldn’t force play and the approach, but we had to accept that we were strangers for the child.”

János: “This is good over the long term because it indicates that he is able to attach. Zsolt was not cuddly, he didn’t run to the arms of his foster parents but instead sat on the carpet pushing a car. Later, when he was with us, he kept this habit for a while, if he had any problems he stood in one place, he did not run to us. We were watching our first impressions and whether we could sincerely accept him or not. We knew since attending the course that if only one of us felt no, then it meant no for both. But luckily, in our case this was not like this. Zsolt was a really smiley, cheerful little child and much nicer than in the pictures. He totally charmed us with his eyes. There was no question that we wanted to see him again but the next day we had to call them again to prove that this was not done merely out of fleeting excitement.”

Did your children know about him?

János: “When we first mentioned this to them, we were already arranging the papers and I have to say that they were not pleased. Their first reaction was that we were enough, but if another child had to come, then at least he should not be adopted. Our oldest child was most against this, he was just reaching his teens and he was always thinking about what other people would say about the adoption and, as he put it, he had already ‘suffered’ enough with two younger sisters. There was a lot of emphasis on the course about the successfulness of adoption depending on how much the parents are able to accept it and how they communicate the fact to the outside.

“When a birth sibling arrives in the family, it is the same thing: it is not in the siblings’ competence but the parents’ whether there should be another child in the family. We invited them to come and see Zsolt and if they had any problems we could discuss the matter, but we made them understand that it was not their decision.

“The negative attitude only lasted up until the moment that they met Zsolt. In that minute, the wall collapsed.”

Boglárka: “In December, we went to visit him more often and for longer each time, despite the 200 km distance. At the beginning, the foster parents only went through to the other room, then they left the building, and finally we took Zsolt away for a little while. By that time he understood that something was going on and he was crying more and more. It was most difficult for him to know who exactly he belonged to. Then the time arrived that we could bring him home for three days between the two holidays. After we took him back, we indicated again that we would certainly like to adopt him and because he was crying a lot we also said that we would like to take him home with us as soon as possible. We took him home for good on 14 January.”

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Photo: Tamás Páczai

How did the process of attachment go?

János: “Our children immediately became friends with him. At that time there were magnetic letters on the fridge door, from which the kids had spelled out their names earlier. Once, Dani came to me and said that there were not enough letters but he had found out how to spell out the names of all four of them in the form of a crossword. At this moment I felt that Dani had accepted his younger brother. Zsolt needed more time to attach. The experience is that this attachment will be deep when he has spent as much time with the family as elsewhere. More or less, this was correct. When he started kindergarten, we had to tell the teachers to watch him because if the door was left open and somebody smiled at him pleasantly, then he would go away with them.”

It couldn’t have been easy getting on the same wavelength as Zsolt because you didn’t know anything about him.

János: “One of our relatives said it was like when you start watching a series but only in the middle of the second season. A good part of the prequels can only be inferred.”

Boglárka: “At the beginning, he hated water, probably due to an earlier traumatic experience, so the evening bath was a real torture for months. We had problems with eating as well. When he came to us, he lived on cocoa drunk from a baby bottle. He almost couldn’t swallow solids. One of his forms of protest was retching up food without a word. It was sufficient, he had eaten enough, but he didn’t try to say this out loud. Finally, we taught him that he should tell us what the problem was instead of vomiting the food.”

János: “Furthermore, we came across a big task right at the beginning: since the foster parents had not told him that they were not his biological parents, we had to tell him. We told him what vicissitudes he had gone through and that now he was going to be with us forever, he was our son and would never leave us. Up to this point he had cried a lot but after this talk everything changed. We were surprised that a two-and-a-half-year-old child understood this.”

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Photo: Tamás Páczai

Did anything ever make you feel that he had been born from an unwanted pregnancy?

János: “Yes. At the beginning he was invisible and not heard in the house. He instinctively hid because he didn’t want to disturb anybody. For months we didn’t know where he was because he kept very quiet. We saw that he was starting to enjoy things when on entering the house we could hear where he was.”

How easy was it for you to declare his Gypsy origin in your immediate environment?

Boglárka: “I remember when his origin came to light in the family, there was somebody who tried to warn us that we would have many problems with him. We said that this was our problem and we accepted it. However, since then Zsolt is the favourite of that member of the family. If we insist that this is not a problem, then the environment accepts it like this. Luckily, the kindergarten and school where the children go is open and receptive.

“We know that Dani also accepts this when once one of his classmates started to tell a Gypsy joke and he told him: ‘You know my younger brother is Gypsy, don’t you? Now, carry on!” It is no secret and no insult that he is a Gypsy.

“We had to make it clear in ourselves what is prejudice and what is reality. Are we susceptible to seeing something behind an observation that is not actually there, and are we able to distinguish this? It happened that we caught Zsolt fibbing and we looked up suddenly because we were prejudiced. We had to rethink whether we overreacted, being afraid that he was doing this because he was a Gypsy.

“Zsolt came from an environment lacking in stimulation, two and a half years in such circumstances is a long time. When he came to us, he didn’t pay attention to conversation, he wasn’t interested in fairy tales, he couldn’t play with others, and he didn’t engage with his environment. Now he is very sad if we don’t read to him in the evening. He has a very good memory, perhaps better than the others. In other areas he is making up for the backlog at a furious pace and in the meantime he is of great joy to us. Many are unwilling to adopt an older or non-white child. One should not be frightened of this, difficulties do not derive from that.”

You are known as being a strong couple. How did your relationship come about?

Judit Varga: “I remember exactly that it was 1 April 2005 when at an attorneys’ party a guy in a brown jacket sat down opposite me – it was Péter. A mutual acquaintance introduced us, we started to chat and in seconds we realized that we imagined our lives according to an identical system of values.

“It was relatively uncommon even then that somebody should date a woman by saying, amongst other things, that they would like to marry and become a parent when still young. Péter made no secret of this and I was very impressed.”

Péter Magyar: “I think it is a good thing to have children when young, on the one hand because a person is still more flexible, they overcome obstacles more easily, and on the other hand, having got past the young children period quickly, we are faced with enormous opportunities.”

Was it always evident that as well as motherhood, you wanted to excel in other areas as well?

Judit: “Yes. I always thought that life didn’t come to a halt after birth – but without children, it would stop! I was never concerned that there wouldn’t be interesting work for me, I always felt that this part of my life would be all right. However, if I didn’t have a family, then there was no sense to the whole thing, so I was more concerned about finding a partner. As a trainee associate, I was highly esteemed in several international practices, the only problem being that I had neither free weekends nor evenings off. From a professional aspect it was an extremely valuable period, I learnt a lot, but I had no time left for my private life. At that time, Péter worked as a court clerk, he finished every day at four in the afternoon, I sometimes came home late in the evening so he was waiting for me with a hot dinner. We felt that this could not go on in the long term. Our relationship became ever more serious and in August 2006 Péter asked for my hand in marriage and we changed our lifestyle.”

Péter: “At the time we talked a lot about what a healthy division of roles between a woman and man in a relationship looked like, even if there could be one. In the end we decided and in a sudden switchover I became a trainee associate, Judit carried on as a court clerk. It was absolutely clear that at that time she stepped back for our relationship.”

Judit: “Then it was 2008 and ‘young mother underground’, which I loved. I enjoyed long morning walks with our son on Sas Hill and I thought how much better this was than working myself to death in an office. This is another very good thing in a woman’s existence, that she can try out several roles. Of course, each evening I really looked forward to meeting up with civilization in the person of Péter. This period spent at home with a baby is a beautiful time but difficult as well, and it is important to speak of this, too.

“I don’t think it is right when one only talks of the happy times because for many, the monotony, the lack of adult communication can be frustrating – particularly when all the mother hears is that this is beautiful, that she has to feel happy in herself every single second of the day.

“By the time Levente was around one year old, I was longing to do something different.”

Then Péter stepped back: he gave up law in the interest of Judit’s career in Brussels, staying at home with their one-year-old child in a strange city. Was this a difficult decision?

Péter: “The decision itself was not difficult because I knew that, despite the low points, Judit also wanted to be at home with Levente and fundamentally this is a good thing. My career here in Hungary was just taking off, although we had always wanted to work abroad for a few years and Judit received an excellent opportunity in Brussels, so we jumped at the chance. After the first few weeks, just being at home – without friends and relatives – was very difficult, my horizons narrowed considerably. Since then I understand and can truly value the sacrifice made by women.

“The dynamic of the life of the partner at home with a child and the spouse going to work are completely different – this was when I understood why so many marriages break down at this time.

“It’s a completely different thing when I can stroll into work in the morning, and there are tough moments but I can drink a coffee alone at any time, in other words, basically I am a free man. Being at home with a small child, trouble can arise at any moment. This period shaped both our characters, it was instructive and it brought us together. I believe that several weeks or months spent at home can be important for every husband, father and it can result in the sort of strong father-child bond that is inconceivable in ‘telework’. Anyway, Judit is always going on about how unjust it is that when the husband goes out to work, he expects that on his return in the evening everything should be tidy, his wife should be dressed nicely, waiting with a cooked meal on the table, if possible the children are asleep – or they are at least quiet. When, however, the man is at home with the child, then the idea of these expectations does not even come up – or at least in her experience. It’s certain that I never waited for her dressed nicely (laughs).”

You rewrote the typical male-female division of labour but how did those around you take it? Didn’t they feel pity for Péter when as a man he stepped back in favour of his wife? Did they ever ask Judit why she couldn’t stay at home with the young children?

Péter: “I never experienced this as a victim, marriage is teamwork, and in fact in Belgium I met about as many fathers in the playground as mothers, so this was not such a big deal there.

“Of course, sometimes my friends have teased me since Judit became a minister, asking me who wears the trousers in our family. At these moments I always quote the husband of Margaret Thatcher, who laughingly replied to similar questions by saying: ‘I wear the trousers. And I wash and iron them, too.’ But when we talk seriously, I rather feel a sense of respect for the fact that we both allow each other to make our own careers. I am convinced that freedom of choice must be allowed for both women and men and the point is for both parties to be satisfied with the setup – if we desire a true demographic turnaround, we still have a long way to go in this respect.”

Judit: “With Péter, I have always been able to experience motherhood, what are traditionally called women’s tasks, as though I were in a cage with an open door: I knew that if I wanted to prove myself in another area, I could always fly out. Péter never expected me to give up anything of the person I am. If the door to the cage had been locked, then it is not certain I would have felt so good in myself, but in this way I was always happy to fly back.

“At the same time, I greatly esteem – and sometimes am slightly jealous of – those women who feel fulfilled by preserving the warmth of home, and it is very disturbing when this is presented as work of a lesser rank or value than a workplace career. This is a tough and responsible job, as any parent knows full well.

“On the other hand, I consider it important that we give the right of choice to every woman and we do not judge those who do not fulfil the mother-role in themselves.”

Yet isn’t it difficult that Péter, as a male manager of a company, has need of the presence of a supportive wife who, I’m sure, is unable to accompany him to every formal event?

Péter: Yes, but this is somewhat of a Prince Philip syndrome. Usually, if one of the spouses runs a major company, then family life adjusts to his/her schedule. Things are slightly different with us because Judit occupies the seat of Ferenc Deák and this is the greatest possible honour and at the same time the greatest responsibility for a Hungarian attorney. But I don’t want to deny that this role is difficult as an energetic man, and sometimes we consider ourselves to be a kind of social experiment: exciting and beautiful, but why is it happening to us? (they laugh) Because it can be heart-breaking if the children start crying when they once again see their mother with a suitcase, and perhaps it is even more difficult for Judit having to hold meetings in this knowledge. At these times I always remember ‘homeland above all else’, we undertook this public service. If our example contributes to a position when in a few years’ time in Hungary it won’t be abnormal if a woman undertakes a leading position in public life alongside motherhood, or even with a large family, then we will not have lived in vain. I reckon the key is to be sought in finding the right companion, but it is important that the reinterpretation and transformation of roles does not result in chaos.”

And Judit, what is it like not being able to be the supportive wife on every occasion, indeed, now Péter has the supportive role?

Judit: “I’m not very keen on events where we are seated separately. Naturally it is hard that Péter is frequently in a supportive status and I am sorry that I cannot always accompany him to important events. But we don’t only appear a strong couple from the outside, we are tempered within as well (they laugh). It is important for me that a husband should be a man and a wife a woman. As to how they complement one another, that depends on the couple, I reckon. I consider it important to keep the rhythm together, and always the one should move forward or sideways as the situation demands.”

Judit, when are you able to live the traditional feminine role?

Judit: “For example, I really love being able to clear the table after a dinner with friends so that the men can talk, I like washing up, I clean the spots from clothes and I like dressing prettily. And of course, one of the most atmospheric things is when I can make dinner on a summer evening in the kitchen of our house on the Balaton.

“I consider order in the family to be very important, that the children know where to find everything – I think this is fundamental to their spiritual stability. And order is vital in their everyday life as well: that everything goes smoothly with the music classes and sports, which are important in character shaping.

“It is not definitely school but rather these that teach them fair play, humility, teamwork, that we should always appear less than we actually are – if these are missing in their childhood, then they won’t have the tools to be happy as an adult. If I have to take part in a cabinet meeting, if I have not managed to organize these for the children, then I cannot feel as self-confident as when I know that my heartland is stable. Because in this case there can’t be major problems and ‘all’ I have to do is answer questions that arise at the cabinet session.”

Péter: “In fact, while we were living in Brussels our two younger sons were born and once again Judit took one step back while I moved up a rung on the diplomatic ladder.”

Judit: “Yes, in effect for years I’ve been on the backburner. Péter travelled a great deal so that in those years I held the front at home, but this was a very lovely time as well. With young children I had the ideal work, because in the afternoon I took them to football training and music classes, indeed, I headed up the parental community at the school in Brussels for a year. We often look back with a measure of nostalgia on those happy and – compared to our current life – certainly calmer years, but in the meantime we feel that God places that burden on each of us that we are capable of bearing.”

As a minister, in what way are you different to a man?

Judit: “In my vocation, for me it is not important to annihilate in a macho way the other party during a discussion, but to somehow reach a compromise. I have found that we women, during our life, so many times experience the physical and emotional depths – let’s just think of pregnancy, giving birth, being at home – that we have less tendency to be big headed, we have more humility in us. We are more emotional and thus our approach is different to that of men. This is also needed in public life. Of course, not on the basis of quotas but on aptitude.

“According to the statistics, mothers with several children are above-average efficient workers. Of course, as a mother it is tough that I am frequently far from my children, but for them this is normal because they grew up with it. We are their parents and I consider it most important that we remain ourselves.

“I believe that if we stick together, we can jointly bring up our three sons to be happy adults.”

Why not show our capital from a new, family angle as well? This inspired idea came to Fruzsina Nyári, founder of the Babagúz and Lottirose family travel assistance service. The fact is that in the course of her work, she found herself frequently being asked where foreign families visiting Hungary should go when in Budapest. “We, too, had the same question when we travelled with the kids to some foreign destination, for example, Dublin or Barcelona: what a great thing it would be if there was a collection of the best places for families, because neither an Irish pub nor the long queue to enter Sagrada Familia makes for the ideal experience when you have two tinies in tow,” says the brains behind the ‘Budapest with Kids’ map, speaking from personal experience.

The booklet, which is designed to help both families in Budapest who want to wander around and families with children visiting as tourists, has a "slow&green" approach. The slowed-down exploration of the city is encouraged by the fact that families can open a classic map format in the digital world and browse and plan together with their children.

Anna Babics, the drive behind the project’s creative concept, spoke more about this approach: “We know that in itself, the urban environment surrounds children with masses of stimuli: noisy, pressing and fast-moving. When we set about choosing leisure activities, it was important for us to select slow&green programmes and venues in which it is possible to be enriched with simple experiences, calmly and quietly.”

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Photo: Babagúz

In this light, the Budapest with Kids map proposes more than 100 special places from natural playgrounds through green shops and cultural programmes all the way to family-friendly catering outlets. “The map features proven and trusted favourites, the sort of places that we like to visit with our own families: one of our old favourites is the Pony Courtyard at Normafa, we enjoyed a family picnic birthday in the beautiful wooden playground of Szent Ferenc Hospital, both my son and daughter learnt to walk in the great parks of Újbuda, while most weeks we find something to read in the Bartók Pagony bookshop,” says Anna Babics about the overtly subjective selections.

Illustrations of places waiting to be discovered were made by László Báthori, while the overall refined design of the city compass is the work of Zita Lengyel-Szabó: “Laci and I looked through dozens of foreign city map designs, for days we just drew inspiration because we wanted to create a really fine product.”

“The best compliment the project received later on was when somebody asked: on what stock page can you find these graphics of the places? I really had to laugh and I told the person that Laci had drawn them all.”

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Photo: Babagúz

The first picture to be done was the Czakó Smallholders’ Market, in which the illustrator also depicted a kitten. The other members of the project liked this touch so much that they asked for the appearance of more cute animals when putting together visuals of other locations.

The first edition of Budapest with Kids was published in Hungarian and English in 1000 copies, and is currently available on the Babagúz webshop and Lottirose Deák Square package point. Part of the HUF 1500 price is earmarked for charity. “It was always important for us to back good causes. We work independently with Amigos for Children Foundation and manager Sára Forgács-Fábián to ensure a happier childhood for those who come into contact with us. A percentage of every map sold goes to Amigos and it was an enormous joy for us that influencers helping the map campaign also offered their fees to the Foundation,” reveals Fruzsina Nyári.

Today, the map helping families in their journey of discovery, which is packed with peaceful experiences, has been supplemented with numerous other services: there are family and pocket colouring books and even a full-size poster, which can be a handy adornment for children’s bedrooms. Shortly, Babagúz online platforms will be running a one-minute video series covering places shown in the map, with the participation of a ‘tester team’ made up of children.

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Photo: Babagúz

And what does the future hold? In 2020, the team is preparing for a really special summer surprise, and in the first half of the year they are debuting the ‘Budapest with Kids’ app as well, which alongside the 100 places already on the map will suggest further ideas.

On top of this, it brings together pushchair and walking pathways of discovery in which diaper changing stations, ice cream parlours, parks for resting and the best playgrounds are just as much integral parts as a sightseeing tour enjoyable both for adults and children.

Of course, the Budapest with Kids map is not a ‘mission accomplished’: Fruzsina Nyári and her colleagues are constantly updating and expanding the list of places recommended for families. “We would like to initiate a dialogue about what can be done to make Budapest a truly family-friendly city. We are always seeking cooperation with major companies, hotels, restaurants, as well as decision-makers because there is still much to do in the fields of transport and services. As is evident on our map, too, we have a beautiful city rich in ideas and family venues, it is our common responsibility to look after it!”

– Why did you choose Hungary as the venue for the world premiere of this piece?

– We have been working together with the Hungarian Radio Art Groups (Since the 2019/2020 season, Mr. Cura will be for three years the permanent guest artist of the HRAG- Ed.), who are my artistic family, so whenever I'm preparing for a premiere, first I ask them for their opinion. My idea had immediately found their approval, so we staged the Montezuma together.

– How do you find working with the musicians of the Hungarian Radio Symphony Orchestra and the Choir?

– Working with Hungarians is captivating, I could best describe it with the words „dangerous” and „fiery”. They are rather temperamental, which I truly like about them. Apart from their work in the band, they also have other side jobs, such as teaching, so they are quite busy and there are times they are tired by the time they get here for rehearsals, so I need to keep that in mind. This is our second collaboration therefore I am getting to know them more: I already know who is married, who has children, who has any personal problem… I turn to them not as maestro but as a friend, which I consider essential in a community.

– How did you choose the musicians for the roles?

– It wasn't my job, as the artistic manager of the band was responsible for it. I knew the majority of them from earlier, we had been working together two months ago when we were preparing for the first rehearsals of the play. Because of the versatility of the characters, it was challenging to find the right people, for example the real Vivaldi was not only a composer but also a violinist, so playing his character required a tenor who plays the instrument. We are incredibly lucky with Donát Varga, who is a great violinist and tenor in one person.  

– The story begins with a Mexican baron, the Lordship, who is traveling to Venice, where during the carnival, wearing the costume of Montezuma, the Aztec ruler he meets Vivaldi, who, inspired by the encounter writes an opera about the Indian king. What artistic tools do you use to take back the audience to the 1700-s?

– The language of the opera follows the aesthetics of the Baroque: a band of only forty people play the music on stage, consequently the lyrics is more audible. In contrast, during the time of romance, the entire band played during recitativo or dialogues, occasionally interrupting the continuity of the play with its monumentality.

Baroque, by the way, is my favourite era in music history and I am a great fan of Bach, for me he is the alpha and omega of music, but Vivaldi, Händel and Scarlatti are also close to my heart.

– To create a more realistic show, the characters speak their native language. Do you speak the actors' dialect?

– More or less, yes, I do. My mother tongue is Spanish, and I also speak English. I lived in Verona for four years and while I don’t speak the Naples dialect yet, I did learn the Venetian one. Of course, during the performance the audience will have the benefit of subtitles so they will understand all the words of the actors.

– You wrote Montezuma based on Alejo Carpentier 's novel „Baroque Music”, which you first read 30 years ago. Why did you wait for so long for the work to be staged?

– Even then I had found the book a great literary work, saw that it can potentially be remade, however I was only 27 and had no idea where to start. When it came into my hands much later, it has all become clear to me, thanks to my experience over the past decades. The key characters of the story are composers, so it was logical to turn it into an opera, not to say a movie.

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Kép: Páczai Tamás

– Despite his comic opera genre, Montezuma begins with a tragedy: Francesquillo, a servant of the Lordship, dies in plague. In a later scene, Vivaldi, Händel, and Scarlatti talk in a cemetery where they leave to bid the then deceased Wagner a farewell. How do death and comics fit together?

– You can die with humour. (laughs) If death is seen as a sorrowful event, it has nothing to do in a comic opera, however, instead of as a romantic element, I see it as part of the development, a transformation. Francesquillo's death is a symbol of the metamorphosis of a little child: the act begins with a young boy and ends with Philomeno, a man older than him, when the servant is reborn in his soul. Later, Philomeno takes control of the moral of the story, and Francesquillo had to die before he could enter the scene

– In the sixth scene, the Lordship challenges Vivaldi and questions his opera as historically unreliable, but the composer proclaims the primacy of the poetic illusion instead of stating the facts. Which do you consider more important in art?

– I believe in a happy medium: to allow room for imagination without distorting reality.

Personally, I love realism onstage, but the situation was different with this opera, as the novel it was based on was written in the genre of magical realism that is typical of Latin American literature. Carpentier toyed with the idea of what it would have been like if Vivaldi was writing in the modern era, parodying the fashion of the Baroque era, therefore women are singing many of the songs.

– Did you use other sources for the libretto?

– Carpentier does not elaborate on who Montezuma was because of space limitations, so I read historical texts and chronicles of the Aztec ruler, such as works of Bernal Díaz del Castillo and Fray Francisco de Aguilar, but these are only theories and do not reveal the whole truth. I built the most dramatic approach into the story. When one writes a play, they need different characters on stage. Instead of these disputed texts, I relied on paintings and my imagination to create the personal profiles of the characters. Looking at the pictures, I tried to figure out who they were. On that basis I imagined the plump Handel being a sweet, lovable figure, while the elegant and sophisticated appearance of Vivaldi I reckon, hid a captivating personality.

– Who's your favourite character?

– The servant of the Lordship, Philomeno who joins and follows him after Francisquillo's death and for him he is like Pinocchio's little counsellor: keeps watching and commenting on everything. Although musically he is not, but from a moral point of view he is the main character of the play: the way the story unfolds is in his hands.

Due to Philomeno being a person of colour, the issue of human rights has been raised several times in the opera, which is why the title of the play became „comedy – but not so much”.

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Kép: Páczai Tamás

– The story ends with the Lordship's decision to travel back to Mexico and release Philomeno, who is trying his fortune in France. Can he, a black man thrive there as a famous trumpet player?

– The servant is going to Paris hoping he will be called Monsieur Philomeno there and will not be called „the Negro”. When he hears his desire, the Lordship defies that this may change one day, to which Philomeno replies, „If you say so...” This leaves the question open, and it is not for me to answer it, the audience must draw their own conclusion. I do not think it is a great idea for the author to explain the ending, thus just letting the viewers go home, drink a coffee and forget what they have seen. It's more exciting if they must figure it out for themselves: in this case, they think about it for a long time and start conversations about how everyone interpreted the play.

– How do you see the issue of human rights?

– Racism is still present today, and the problem of migration is causing much debate in Hungary and throughout Europe. Politicians, to divide society, always paint a black and white picture, but this is a much more complex issue. I have nothing to say about it, I know both sides of the coin: my grandparents were immigrants from Italy, Spain and Lebanon. They arrived in Argentina at the beginning of the last century, and I was born there. Thirty years ago, I came to Europe. Migration between continents is a natural cycle: we start from one point to another therefore we cannot tell where we will be in a hundred years.

I sympathize with the situation of those on the road to a better life, but I also understand the concerns of Europeans, who are frightened by the masses of people coming to their country.

Uncontrolled admission of immigrants does not benefit anyone. We need to provide them a future, a job, give them hope and dignity, as begging for change on the street is not dignified but an open attack on migration. The only thing I cannot tolerate is the lack of education and compassion; with violence, neither side achieves its purpose.

– How do you remember the time you came to Europe?

– In 1991, I often waited at the police, in the company of Africans, to acquire a residence permit for three months and then came back every three months to apply for a new one. It took me over 15 years to establish my livelihood here, including obtaining a European passport. These experiences also influenced my career: I wanted to travel to England before the Schengen Convention existed, and there were problems with my Argentinian passport. When I wanted to return to Italy, the police officers treated me rather rudely at the border. I know what it is like when immigrants have no money to eat and can't find work. I remember once someone left me on the roadside because he was convinced that every Argentinian is a thief. Over the past 57 years of my life, I have had many dramatic and many beautiful moments, and those experiences have made me the man I have become.

– How important is the South American culture to your life?

– Every culture is important if you want to be a great artist. It is, of course, impossible to make it all our own, but we must strive to at least discover the cultures that surround us or represented by our characters. Due to my background I can relate to the Spanish and the Italian, but also the Arabic and the Lebanese.

– What is your relationship to the Hungarian culture?

– Although I have been visiting Hungary for twenty years, during my visits I spend little time here and have no opportunity to sightsee. Right now, I'm commuting between the Academy of Music and the Radio, so while the National Museum is within a stone’s throw, we work 10 hours a day, so by the time we finish, it closes. In a few months however, I may be able to give a different answer to the question. For the first time, as a guest artist at HRAG, I have a closer working relationship with the nation, so I slowly absorb the Hungarian culture and lifestyle and they don’t see me as a guest anymore

– The audience will first see the fruits of your joint work on January 29th. What kind of reception do you expect?

– I can't tell you that, but I trust they will like it. If they will not boo, that's already positive feedback. (laughs)

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Kép: Páczai Tamás

– Who is the target audience for your comic opera?

– This is a remarkably clever and dangerous question! (laughs) Montezuma is for a wide audience. This is an intellectual comic opera that contains many references to other works. Viewers will have fun even if they have no prior knowledge of them, but the play will be enjoyable best if they recognize all the hints. This is no different with other forms of art. If you're going to the Louvre not having heard of the Mona Lisa, you are only going to see a smiling lady in front of you, but if anyone explains the hidden meaning of that masterpiece, all the colours, the use of the brush, the thoughtfulness of the picture will make sense at once. Being knowledgeable thus allows us to have more fun.

– What references did you hide in the opera?

– In his book Carpentier cites many musical works as he was also a music historian. In addition to the works of Vivaldi, Handel and Scarlatti, in the Montezuma we will evoke the Othello from Verdi, the Circus Polka from Igor Stravinsky and for twenty seconds a few lines from a literary creation, Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet will be quoted. We also refer to Walt Disney as a joke, juxtaposing his tales with Wagner's fantastic world.

– Montezuma is your first opera. Why has composing previously been neglected in your career?

– As a tenor, I have given a hundred performances a year, with no time left to compose. Composition is a whole-person task; when I orchestrated the music of Montezuma, I spent weeks in the studio, talking to no one, and the outside world ceased to exist for me.

– Do you plan on composing more pieces anytime soon?

– I'm looking for another libretto, and I hope it won't take another thirty years before I find it, that would be too late. (laughs) Composing music is not the greatest challenge today. It’s finding the perfect libretto that interests people.

(Translated by János Farkas)

After a trip of nearly 40 minutes from Miskolc, our train draws into Ináncs station at 11:30 am. This, along with Pere, Hernádbűd and Hernádszentandrás, is the fourth (and largest) village in the programme. We left Budapest on a cloudy morning yet here we are met by glorious sunshine. Social worker Fruzsina Benkő, founder of Jószolgálat Prize winning InDaHouse Hungary, meets us with the minibus. The fact that Fruzsi learnt to drive in order to be able to transport children around here perhaps says a lot about her commitment. As a deep-rooted Budapester, she moved to the village in the summer in order to supervise the construction work. She just left the building site of the Volunteer and Children’s Centre that she has long been dreaming of creating to come and collect us. In fact, today is an exciting day: if the weather stays fine, we can learn about adobe plastering from one of the local grandfathers. But let’s talk about that later.

Let’s contract!

Our first trip takes us to the special school where – as it is the start of the InDaHouse academic year – contracting with the children is already well underway. “Earlier, our school kids made vows, and now all of them talk about their annual (learning) targets with the help of volunteers, and together with acceptance of the main rules i.e. nobody hurts anybody, and at most five absences are permitted per term, all this is set down in writing,” Fruzsi explains. Until their own place is completed, in all likelihood in October, one of the buildings in the village hosts school classes, just as in the previous two academic years. The building was loaned by Hernádszentandrás local government.

From 10 am to 2 pm, children aged 6 to 16 - fifty-eight this year - take turns in 2-hour slots over the two days, with the first half hour of sessions spent in group play (outside in the courtyard in good weather), followed by individual coaching.

The latter is the result of well coordinated work: volunteers preparing test sheets on the basis of individual interest and difficulties of the children, mentors following the path of each child and volunteers either travelling here or teaching via Skype all work together from week to week.

All for one: Szabi makes it to grammar school

Bogi is 12 and starting her fifth academic year at InDaHouse (meanwhile, in 2016, she spent a year in Canada with her family), she likes learning, she gets top marks in most subjects, although she would like to improve her mathematics “to at least the best”. Her goal is to attend grammar school in Miskolc, although she would willingly learn the profession of hairdressing.

In fact, four students of InDaHouse started this academic year in grammar school as a result of extensive preparatory work and many conversations. Fruzsi reckons this is one of their biggest successes so far.

One of them, Szabi, studies in Budapest, although even here they stay in touch: thanks to donors, they are able to cover his necessary expenses and volunteers support him in transport and studying. “We have seen much more in him than anyone has ever seen before” Fruzsi says in response to my question about whether without them, Szabi would still have had the urge to attend grammar school. At the same time, she emphasizes that they are not forcing anything on anybody, they rather represent an attitude: “let somebody be a stonemason, but then let him be the best.”

“I receive emotion”

In the meantime, the first class is finished and then comes the news: one of the older girls, although already enrolled, does not want to come to school. Fruzsi drops everything and we go together to get Ramóna who, after revealing the problem, is prepared to come with us. Meanwhile, she tells us that they have been going to InDaHouse with her nine-year-old younger brother for several years and they have been on several summer camps. So it is not surprising that for the children, Fruzsi’s programme goes well beyond the improvement of study results. In InDaHouse they give a lot and receive a lot, as witnessed by the handwritten ‘term starting’ slips. For example, what? Love, attention, kindness. Mutual assistance. Emotion.

But they also receive experiences and presents. However, to get these requires persistence, commitment and the ability to go beyond what they thought possible. InDaHouse’s self-developed Manna system is designed to measure this.

The children collect stamps throughout the whole year – in line with their cooperation and diligence – thus getting them to the point where at the end of the year they can swap these for a much longed-for bicycle, for example, or a trip to Budapest.

In the course of the year, the excursion club set up this spring by one of the volunteers represents adventure for the kids: they learn about respect for nature and each other while trekking in Zemplén and Bükk. By overcoming their own fears, together they reach the summit, with each taking on a role – doctor, navigator, lead ant, rearguard – for the team.

20 days building – as a woman

It is two o’clock. Lunchtime. There is silence at the building site just a few metres from the school, only Dávid, one of the building volunteers, is digging an ever-bigger pit – it’ll soon become apparent what this is for. In fact, construction of the house – starting with the purchase of the plot and the small adobe brick house standing on it, which has become part of the new construct – is the result of until now unprecedented cohesion. Private and corporate donors have given around HUF 30 million including materials and it is not impossible that with the arrival of further secondary school and corporate groups, the number of volunteer helpers may even reach 600. Rooms required for children’s classes are located on the ground floor while volunteers (perhaps even long-term foreign helpers) can be accommodated on the upper floor in single-, double- and four-bed dormitories.

For the time being, the local government provides accommodation for volunteers travelling here. Fruzsi has fixed accommodation. We meet them at lunch. From them I find out that several of the school and early child development volunteers started at InDaHouse labouring on the building.

For example, since September last year 29-year-old Zsófi, who is studying for her PhD, has spent approximately 20 days here doing different jobs – tiling, partitioning, sanding – and she ‘debuted’ at the school today. She can travel down to Hernádszentandrás once a month. (A weekend lasts from Friday evening to Sunday evening, with volunteers arriving together from Budapest in the InDaHouse minibus.)

Visiting Nikó’s family

In addition to the six volunteers in the school and six working on construction, this weekend there are three volunteers going to homes of families living in Pere, Hernádszentandrás and Ináncs giving so-called early development training for children aged 0-6 years (about 50 kids in all).

This is particularly important because quite often children enter primary school with deficiencies in certain skills. Leaving from the InDaHouse guest house operating in Pere as a social enterprise, where the girls spend their lunchtime, we accompany Csenge and Alexa who have been working in the programme for a year, and the ‘new recruit’ Brigi, to the next family in Pere. Csenge said that the families were open to the visits and the volunteers quickly gained their confidence. We turn up with a huge bag full of various skill development games at the house of one-year-old Nikolasz, his two older siblings who go to school and their parents. While Alexa and the father of the baby deal with Nikó, the other two girls play with Amanda and Dominik who start school this week. Erzsó, their mother, reckons that the two older children developed enormously during their preparatory school year and they can hardly wait for first class in Szentandrás the following morning. Last year, Dominik built up enough points for a bicycle and he still hasn’t used up all his ‘stock’.

The long-awaited adobe plastering

We bid farewell to Alex and her colleagues and with the help of a local father taking over driving of the minibus we return to the building site where the abovementioned InDaHouse grandfather – in gratitude that his grandchildren can come here – teaches volunteers about the skill of adobe plastering. They have all been in the pit dug by Dávid for the past hour, joyfully trampling the clay ‘mined’ the day before with chaff. Soon it is time to start plastering the small adobe brick house.

Building work, that is in its second year, is expected to be finished in approximately two months, but the InDaHouse team won’t find themselves idle: thanks to a private donor, they can buy the small house in the village where, after renovation, they will realize another great dream, a community café.

This will give the older children the chance to learn about the world of work and enterprise. Besides this, Fruzsi and her partners would like to involve the village of Fügöd (with segregated school and kindergarten) belonging to the town of Encs in the programme within the next few years, but to achieve this they have to strengthen their human and financial resources. It is also important to guarantee long term the salaries of the three employees working full-time in the association. In other words, there are plenty of challenges ahead but the team’s diversity, creativity and persistence have already moved mountains.

From among the achievements of the past year, what are you particularly proud of in your work and in your personal life?

“Let’s look at one or two specific things from this very active year! Professionally speaking, the Budapest Demographic Summit was one of the events I look back on with pride in the year we have left behind. This was the third occasion that we invited from all round the globe those people who think as we do on the subject of families, and it was good to see that there are ever more of us: during this period, governmental, NGO, church and scientific players working for families have gained in strength. For these two days, Budapest really was the capital of families: we could experience that we are not alone, that there is sense to our work, and it was very good to be here as a Hungarian! To raise another example beyond the Family Protection Action Plan known by most people, I value the fact that in 2019 we were able to make a major advance in discovering and solving the problems of children and their families living with Type 1 diabetes. There are nearly 4000 such families in Hungary, for whom everyday life represents a serious challenge; it is very good to help here so that these children and their relatives can finally live a more complete life.

“In my personal life, I would mention when we could go and support our daughter in her first basketball match, it was a great feeling and new parental experience that the whole family could cheer her on in a game. Of our three children, two started a new school where they have to perform to a much higher level. I would like to give them more help so that they find it easier to wrestle with the new challenges. If they don’t perform to the best of their abilities, I look on it as a personal failure. I don’t think that everyone has to be A+ in all subjects, but their abilities have to be developed and we have to support them in this.”

Several in the Képmás editorial office declare themselves to be conservative feminists, which means family-centric equal opportunity activism. We hold the government’s family protection activities in high esteem because alongside many other beneficial effects, it helps lessen those disadvantages women may suffer that can derive from motherhood. We consider one of the most important events of 2019 to be when Prime Minister Viktor Orbán announced the launch of the Family Protection Action Plan.

“As far as conservative feminism goes: yes, women must receive support. We do not want anyone to lose an opportunity just because they are a woman. The greatest challenge in the life of women is when family and work tasks clash. This is why we are trying to provide the greatest help here.

“The announcement of the Family Protection Action Plan (despite me knowing what the prime minister was going to say) was for me a moving moment. I received feedback from many other places saying that others were similarly affected as they sat in front of their TV sets after the announcement. For us, the real work started after this. I won’t tell you that everything went smoothly from the start. For example, we received many more applications for car purchase grants for large families than we had originally calculated; initially we reckoned that about 10,000 would submit applications in one year but we are now already over the 20,000 mark and only six months has passed. This is why at the beginning the administration was rather slower than we would have liked, but we have made every effort to change this. I am confident that everyone has received access to funding on time.

“The Family Protection Action Plan is able to help many hundreds of thousands of Hungarians in all sorts of different situations, whether in terms of beginning a family, setting up a home, starting an independent life or raising children, the perfect example of which is that by today, nearly 100,000 families have applied for one form of support or another in the action plan.”

The Hungarian family support system is very diverse. To what extent have you been able to get information across to those who need it?

“One of our basic principles is that it should be as simple as possible to submit a claim for the grants. Earlier, for example, the ‘soc-pol’ system was extremely complicated, while today the fundamental principle is clear: the more children, the greater the level of support. Perhaps now Hungarians can really feel that those who are planning and expecting children can count on assistance. It is important that in every new life situation – if a brother or sister joins the family, if a child starts going to school, if a family would like a new home or would like to exchange their car – then it is well worth getting informed about the opportunities because in virtually every life situation we stand alongside young people and families, offering help. If anybody needs up-to-date, authentic and understandable information, I would recommend they go to csalad.hu. It is easy to find one’s way around and there is no need to read up on the details in the incomprehensible language of legal regulations but in the simplest of formulations. I have no hesitation in recommending this website for everyone!

“At the same time, it is worth phoning the government helpline on 1818, which is accessible 24 hours a day on every day of the week, where trained members of staff are ready to take calls.

“More than 30,000 calls have already been received only with regard to the Family Protection Action Plan. In other words, everyone can receive information, it is only up to them whether they take advantage of the opportunities.”

There are countless family life situations and it is difficult to offer a response to every situation. For instance, in a comment made to an article on kepmas.hu a mother complained that in the case of a graduate on GYED (childcare benefit), the person has to go out to work again before the birth of the second child in order to remain eligible for childcare benefit.

“Precisely in December the legislative provisions of graduates on childcare benefit were modified in the National Assembly so this year this matter is no longer an issue, it has been resolved. It was a legitimate suggestion and we responded to it. We receive a huge amount of feedback from families in all kinds of circumstances; this modification was similarly in response to such feedback. Family policy is a little like football in that everyone has their own opinion about it. Which personally speaking I am pleased about because this ensures that feedback makes its way to us, we are then able to assess the claims, and in given cases we can insert them into the funding system. We are constantly monitoring and we make every effort to establish forums where we can properly respond to issues raised there. We also receive regular feedback from customer services while KINCS (Kopp Mária Institute for Demography and Families) also frequently conducts opinion polls on the topic. Stability of legislation and predictability are important but where necessary we respond sensibly and reasonably.”

From January 2020, childcare benefit for grandparents and exemption from personal income tax for mothers of four or more children came into force. Do you know of similar legislation in other countries?

“There is not really another international example like this, wherever I go in the world everyone is amazed when I speak about such things. Many are unaware with regard to exception from personal income tax for mothers of four or more children that this is for life: in other words, any mother who is expecting a fourth child will not pay personal income tax after income on work she has done for the rest of her life, irrespective of all other benefits. This entitlement remains in force even if she should lose one of her children.

“Tax exemption affects nearly 40,000 mothers. Everyone who is in this situation can count on receiving support.

“Grandparent childcare benefit also offers genuine help. There are many grandparents who are still working but they would like to spend more time with their grandchildren while the parents go back to work. Now this is also possible thanks to this new funding. If a grandmother or grandfather has several grandchildren at home, childcare benefit is due after each grandchild, indeed, they enjoy guaranteed job protection: after childcare benefit runs out, they cannot be sacked.”

Protection of human life all the way from the foetal stage is important for us. How do you view the protection of life situation in Hungary?

“We also recognize the value of human life through the fact that parents are eligible for the majority of family support even from the moment that they are only expecting their child. Every human life has value. Since Christmas we have been screening a short film entitled The Gift of Life, which follows a mother’s pregnancy from beginning to end, presenting the lovely, sometimes amusing, sometimes difficult moments of expecting a child and then the birth of the child.

“Why is this important? Because a key part of education and upbringing is the protection of life: anybody who knows that human life starts with conception, who understands in childhood what a value this is, they will respect human life from the first moment to the last. I believe in this.

“This can be paralleled by the fact that we are also becoming increasingly aware about the protection of the created world, which is also due to the fact that we know more and more about it. While we did not know that we were polluting the environment, we didn’t do anything to stop it. In the same way, until we had exact knowledge that human life has already begun in the mother’s womb, that a foetus is a live and feeling person, it wasn’t evident to everyone that this had to be protected. Today, however, it is possible to carry out operations on the foetus, medical science knows virtually everything about existence within the womb, and for this reason I hope that thanks to these scientific facts as well it will become evident to an ever wider circle of people that a person must be afforded the same respect prior to birth as after birth. Today, this is not a doctrinal debate but fact.”

Yet the experience is that it doesn’t matter that virtually every gynaecological clinic has ultrasound machines and devices to amplify the heartbeat, many are still not convinced even by the exact experience that foetuses have to be given the protection due to a person.

“It is not worth juxtaposing the right of women to self-determination over their own bodies against the right of a foetuses to life because this doesn’t get us anywhere. Let’s not approach the matter from a judgemental point of view! Let’s get to the point where every child learns when human life starts, let’s do everything in order that an expectant mother in a crisis situation can keep her child, we are helping where we can! This is where I see our primary duty.

“So, what is our family policy about? I would like it if there would be no obstacle to having children so it is vital to support those expectant mothers, too, who are in need of assistance. It may be that they didn’t plan the child, they didn’t expect it, but if the mother is able and ready to give birth, then she should get all the help needed for this.

“We cannot allow somebody to give up on a life because she cannot bring up the child, or that she does not receive sufficient financial and spiritual support.

“There are plenty of possibilities where we can supply assistance, and adoption may also be a solution. Annually more than 1000 children are adopted, the trend is upward in this respect, and not because ever more children are being rejected by their birth parents but because children who can be adopted are finding parents ever earlier. Adoptive parents are due exactly the same family support as birth parents.”

Quite often, longed-for children cannot be born because of infertility problems and this affects an increasing number of couples. How can this issue be assisted through governmental measures?

“Prevention comes first. By now, even schoolchildren should be aware that the later a couple wait before having children, the greater the chance there is of infertility. You cannot cheat biology. Today in Hungary, every fifth or sixth couple is infertile and unfortunately by the time they go to a fertility clinic, it may already be too late. The second vital element is information: couples should ask for help in time.

“The government has just reached a decision on making infertility treatment available for everybody faster and at a cheaper price, so that couples affected by infertility can get the highest quality help directly.

“We are talking about approximately 150,000 couples. In future, they will have access to medicines needed to treat infertility – that had merely been partly supported – in effect for free and performance volume limits in the case of fertility clinics will be cancelled, that is, waiting lists are abolished. After all, in this matter we cannot erect numerical limits to reach the goal that we are able to help all couples wishing to have children. We are increasing the responsibility of the state because human life cannot be an object of business, it is not right to reach these decisions on the basis of profit interests. We want to provide a guarantee that the system of provisions serves the interests of those concerned in the best possible way and interventions support the birth of children that couples have dreamed of.”

Domestic violence and violence directed towards children are issues that also impact Hungarian society. Does this require solely a legal and judicial solution, or can family policy also have a role in resolving this serious problem?

“Violence in all forms is unacceptable. What is more, when somebody abuses their power, authority, and harms a vulnerable person, that is all the more tragic. Unfortunately, violence between partners is similarly not unknown in Hungary, which is why it is vital to take action against this using all possible means until the point that we are able to totally eradicate it. The battle against domestic violence is a matter for us all and above all else, attempts must be made at prevention. Right from an early age we must inform children about their rights, we must teach them what the inviolability of their human dignity means and how it can be harmed. In the same way, we must inform them about where the boundary lies past which we can talk about violence, since the fact is that violence can be not only physical but emotional or verbal as well. In Hungary, domestic violence is a crime and everybody should bear this in mind. The Hungarian Criminal Code severely punishes violence committed against women and children, but unfortunately we also see – as happened in the case of the double child murder in Győr – that a strict law is in vain if the court imposes only a light sentence, and gives early release from prison, for the violent father who already had a history of brutal attacks on members of his family.

“As a consequence, the government will tighten up the law and implement zero tolerance in practice. Minister Judit Varga is already working on this.”

What is the role of families in this?

“Properly functioning families and supportive communities have a mutual impact on each other. The latter build on families, meanwhile in numerous cases, church and civil communities are able to offer help to families and people who have fallen into crisis situations. And this is where the second important element of prevention comes in: recognition. For example, this is exactly what the ‘Take Notice’ and ‘Love Doesn’t Hurt’ campaign is about, that the Hungarian Interchurch Aid organization arranged and organizes in 2020, with our backing. The campaign draws attention to the fact that domestic violence is not a private matter. That something occurs behind closed doors is as much a crime as if it happened in full view of everyone. We must notice violence, not only those working in child protection, teachers, district nurses, doctors, but everyone, even neighbours. It is essential to get across the message to victims as well that they are not to blame for abuse, they must not stay silent about this because the situation will only get worse over time. It is extremely important to make a call for help as early as possible. And here is the third important step on our part: provision of effective help on the basis of the call.”

Besides those NGOs supporting victims, what sort of role does the state undertake in reducing violence between couples?

“As I have already said, I consider it most important that violent offenders, those who have already abused members of their family and children, should be in prison and judicial practices should also be employed to keep them far from the family. This is most important in the defence of victims.

“The National Crisis Management and Information Telephone Service OKIT (06-80-20-55-20) can be contacted day and night, free of charge, and its website contains information and advice for victims.

“In a crisis situation, OKIT helps and coordinates the admission of victims, getting them to a crisis centre or secret safe house. Currently 20 crisis centres are operating in the country and a total of eight secret refuges provide help for those escaping specific danger-to-life threats. After termination of the crisis situation, victims may gain admittance to so-called ‘half-way houses’, the number of which has tripled over the past few years.

“I have personally visited these centres on several occasions and however shocking it is to see vulnerable and intimidated victims, in every case I was filled with admiration for the professional work that is conducted in these places. Those who have asked for help can move from apparently hopeless situations to once again standing on their own feet, and they have a good chance that their children will be spared further suffering.”

Why did you choose this relatively narrow field of gynaecology?
“Prior to the birth of my first child I, too, suffered from endocrinological difficulties. As a gynaecologist, I met several patients who either had endometriosis or could not conceive due to other hormonal problems, which is why I began to immerse myself more deeply in the subject. Then when I experienced what fantastic results could be achieved with the precise observation of hormones, the biological cycle and follicular development, one might say I was ‘sucked into’ the field.”

Where we are now, the Semmelweis University Assisted Reproduction Centre, is a brand-new section. Who can come here for help?
“This clinic was founded so that as many wanted child as possible could be born, and as a place where men and women struggling with infertility could find help. The complex set of examinations is state financed; we use the very latest 3D technology to examine the anatomy of the uterus, we check the hormonal functioning of all the key organs, if necessary the immune functions, the coagulation system, indeed even genetic factors. We apply the most up-to-date methods when examining the male partner, too, and there is the chance to have an immediate consultation with our andrologist. We recommend free psychology screening for all our patients, indeed, we conduct any necessary treatment here. Our dietician is on hand for consultations with anybody who needs her. These somewhat costly procedures, insemination treatment and IVF therapy are fully covered by the state.”

Not long ago you gave a TEDx talk which revealed some astonishing data: over the past 10 years, the number of couples turning to fertility clinics for help has tripled. What do you think is the reason for this drastic increase?
“The single biggest problem is pushing back the time couples start thinking about having a family. The number follicles in the ovaries is genetically predetermined at birth and as one ages, their number constantly declines. Parallel with this we see a decline in the quality of ovum, which increases the risk of abnormalities and miscarriage. The fertility of men has also deteriorated a lot in recent times, and less is said about this.

“It is a common myth that infertility is basically a women’s problem although the statistics show that childlessness can be traced back virtually 50:50 to men’s and women’s bodies.”

How do men take this?
“Very hard, frequently worse than women. It can even be difficult to persuade some to take a sperm examination. They experience it as a personal failure, they feel that their masculinity is in question when they have been unable to fertilize their partner. In a normal case, for women 40 is the ‘magic’ number, and for men after 50 is when the fertility of sperm begins to decline at a faster rate.”

What else affects fertility?
“Lifestyle. Without doubt, a sedentary lifestyle and obesity reduce the chances of pregnancy. Instead of or alongside dieting, I would recommend everyone wanting to have a child to participate in active sport for one hour three times a week because this has been proven to have a beneficial effect on fertility. Of course, it’s not good either if someone is too thin, just as if they are too fat because for women in these cases menstruation may be missed and thus there is no follicular maturation. From the point of view of sperm, it is better if men swap overly tight trousers for a looser fit, and around the time of planning a family it is well worth giving up regular visits to the sauna hot baths.

“Smoking is the principal enemy that ruins the quality of sperm and ovum.

“On top of this, women who regularly smoke find they enter menopause two to three years earlier and this harmful addiction clearly damages the chances of a successful outcome to IVF. The psychological factor similarly is of massive significance, that is, what sort of stressed state couples wanting children are in.”

The ideal situation is when a woman is able to give birth to all the children she and her partner want when she is in her twenties, but latest by the age of 35. However, these days very many people only discover ‘Mr or Mrs right’ when they are over 35. What advice would you have for them?
“If it is just a question of whether or not to ‘live life’ together, to travel for another three years before having a baby, I would suggest they decide to have a child as soon as possible.”

Isn’t it possible to ‘touch up’ our age somewhat with exercise, proper nutrition and regular doses of vitamins? The ads tell us that 40 is the new 30, and the fact is that as a consequence of a planned lifestyle transformation many women are more attractive and fitter than they were at 25… How deceiving are looks?
“The ovaries cannot be botoxed! This pithy statement did not come from me but from a British doctor, but I am in complete agreement with her.

“It doesn’t matter how externally youthful a person appears, the quantity of follicles in the ovaries gives a true picture of her age.

“There is plenty of research going on in this field but as at today, there is absolutely no method or cure that can rejuvenate the ova.”

On average, how long after consistent failure do couples turn to the fertility clinic for help, in fact, how long is it worth waiting for successful conception?
“One year for women aged under 35, while those aged over 35 should approach a specialist after six months of unsuccessful attempts at conceiving. There can be many reasons why a baby does not come, and it is worth finding what the problem is as soon as possible. Anyone who has had, for example, several bouts of acute pelvic inflammation, abdominal surgery or endometriosis may find these cause serious adhesions that can obstruct the free passage of the fallopian tubes and thus conception itself.”

Aren’t you concerned that the statistics mentioned in your lecture might put off couples approaching their forties who are exactly thinking about having children?
“This placed me in a serious dilemma before the lecture. Only after lengthy deliberation did I convince myself.

“Obviously, these data are shocking, but does this mean we shouldn’t talk about them? I believe that we, the experts, must draw the attention of young people to the fact that if they want to have children, around the age of 30 they have to start working on this and deal with family planning in a far more organized manner.

“Thank God, many 40-year-old women become pregnant spontaneously and give birth to perfectly healthy children. The fundamental purpose of my lecture was not to frighten but far more to raise awareness that, unfortunately, there are similarly very many for whom this does not go so smoothly. It is our experience that among those waiting to be blessed with children there is a serious level of misinformation in this area and some simply run out of time. For example, there is not such general awareness in the public consciousness that female fertility declines drastically after the age of 37. At this age, even a year’s delay can have major significance, so it is important that young people are made aware of this. Awareness in this area should be the task of society as a whole.”

Infertility is such a blunt, shocking expression. In a medical sense, who and from when can someone be considered infertile?
“I don’t like the word infertility. The Anglo-Saxon terminology is infertility but more recently we prefer to use the expression subfertility (reduced fertility) because many couples find they can conceive after undergoing fertility therapy. By definition, the watershed is the previously mentioned age-dependent six months or one year of unsuccessful attempts, after which infertility can arise. The professional protocol is that social security will not fund IVF treatment for those aged over 45 because on average only a single child is born for every 10 treatments. Even in the years prior to this – despite social security financing five attempts – it may happen that a woman’s hormonal state and follicle stock is such that after one or two stimulations we don’t see any sense in conducting any further IVF treatments and then, however painful it may be, we have to inform the patients of this.”

Are there miracles? Have you come across any cases that you cannot explain as a doctor?
“Yes, several.

“As I have already said, much depends on the psychological factor.

“Not long ago I read that around 15% of women successfully conceive spontaneously after unsuccessful IVF treatment. But I could also mention that at age 43 there is, let’s say, a 3-4% chance of becoming pregnant after in vitro fertilization, and there are cases where this happens. That is why I don’t like putting off couples approaching their forties with the depressing statistics. However, among the younger age groups I am happy to tell them, in their own interest, how fertility indicators change with advancing age, or to put it another way, I sound the warning bell.”

It is common knowledge that your vocation and promotion of natural births comes from your family. Was your choice of career evident from the start?
“I had other plans as well: I also wanted to be an attorney, minister of religion and archaeologist, but obstetrics-gynaecology always remained a priority. My father and uncle are in the profession and one of my sons is also studying to be a doctor. Perhaps my fate worked out as it did because my father, who is a role model for me, frequently took me along with him to hospital where I could see new-born babies. This left a lasting impression on me.”

You started working at Szent Imre Hospital, the same place as your father. Did you immediately take on his attitude?
“At that time, even in Szent Imre there was a strong tendency towards medicalization, which is still common elsewhere – there is a need for this, too, just not to such an extent. Thus I learnt about conventional obstetrics as well, but in the meantime at home I heard a lot about different kinds of birthing techniques and the importance of the mind during pregnancy and birth.

“In fact, natural births were never a driving force in the hospital, only from outside did it appear that ‘alternative’ births were occurring here day and night. There were not more than two or three doctors and midwives working with this approach, and there are not many more of us today. But this little yet highly professional team is ready to undertake breech births, for instance, and natural births after caesarean sections.

“So I’ve seen both sides and this is why it came as no surprise when evidence-based research founded on statistics confirmed: undisturbed childbirth is good and not dangerous. By the way, I would question the omnipotence of this research somewhat, because in the case of a given birth for a given person, we have to listen not only to the statistics but also to our feelings. At the same time, it is extremely important because it shows:

“If a birth starts spontaneously, if the mother can choose her own body position, if a companion of her choice can be by her side, if there are no routine interventions (if the first three conditions are met, then these are rarely invoked), and if the baby can be with his/her mother as long as possible immediately after birth and in the next few days and weeks, then the birth will in all probability take place without complications, a healthy baby will come into the world and the mother’s recovery will be rapid.

“And there will be the kind of birth experience that means afterwards, the mother will be all the more likely to have another child. In other words, this is a serious demographic factor.”

If undisturbed childbirth is such an unambiguously and verifiable good thing, why is it not practised everywhere?
“In the Hungarian system, the responsibility lies with the doctor. And if during university training they are conditioned to save lives, that is, to intervene, and then they see this live during professional practice, then they will also assume this approach. According to my father’s very telling simile, for the mother pregnancy and birth are like a flower-filled meadow, while for the doctor they are like a minefield. It is very difficult to harmonize these differences of approach. Particularly when doctors are taught nothing other than to go around as though with a mine detector.

“Naturally, in an emergency situation it is vital to intervene, but no medical intervention is required in a normal birth.

“A good example of the development of the conventional obstetrician attitude is that at the beginning of my training as a specialist, my colleagues were still interested to hear of my ‘alternative’ birthing stories at Szent Imre. Five years later, their comment on the same thing was ‘how dangerous’. Another example: a talented young colleague who had not yet started their residency with us wanted to tear the just then dilating cervix sheath but couldn’t say why.

“At a birth there are midwives as well, who are in effect trained and used as medical assistants. This is no good. This is why I recommended that there should be more practical work in the training of doctors, and midwifery training should become dual tier, in the second tier of which (master training) there should be exclusively hands-on teaching.”

You have made many recommendations, for example with regard to family-friendly childbirth and outpatient childbirth.
“I’ve been saying the same thing for close on two decades and it now appears that my efforts are not in vain: my proposals are increasingly falling on fertile ground. Most recently, that a hospital should only get funding for equipment procurement in family-friendly childbirth tenders when a high proportion of staff have been sent for extension training needed for a change of attitude: not courses on epidural blocker drugs, not communication training, not perinatal and breastfeeding specialist consulting courses.

“Only in this way is there any hope that not only women giving birth at Szent Imre Hospital can live through the experience of natural childbirth, but everyone in this country.

“The reason I submitted an application for the post of inspector was because aside from what is prescribed officially, in effect I have to do what I formerly did voluntarily: proposals to change the conventional attitude towards childbirth.”

Many view the opportunity for mother- and baby-friendly births to lie in outpatient childbirth.
“I support the introduction of outpatient childbirth as a way to reduce obstetric medicalization. Medical policymakers support this but paediatricians are rightly concerned about babies coming out of hospital care earlier because there are some settlements where they don’t even have a paediatric GP. This could be resolved with compulsory training and neonatologists making visits to family homes, but this still lies in the future. In addition, I consider it important to provide information, which is why I regularly accept invitations to speak about this, abroad as well. Women underwent a massive loss of skill since they do not live in large families where birth and caring for infants is a natural part of life. An increasing number are getting informed about their opportunities and rights, but there are still too many who even now don’t know how babies are conceived.”

You are prepared to accept this much ‘fieldwork’ in order to promote natural childbirth? How do you reconcile your many activities?
“Kata Kondor, who in my eyes is the world’s best midwife, once said:

“We cannot allow ourselves the luxury that only 100–120 women a year experience natural childbirth.

“That is why I became an inspector and I also undertook the establishment of the professional background of gynaecology in the Buda Sisters of Mercy Hospital and the reference obstetrics being formed in Bethesda Children’s Hospital, the future management of which I have been commissioned with. If these get off the ground (in all likelihood in two years’ time), I will have to rethink my commitments, but until then I’ll do my thing everywhere, including in the Gólyafészek /Stork’s Nest/ Birth Centre founded with my father and uncle. Of course, there can be situations where scheduling clashes force a decision; babies don’t arrive when it is convenient for me, but I never push for a birth just because I have matters to attend to elsewhere, so sometimes I have to cancel a surgery or I even miss another birth… It is not always easy to decide but once I have made up my mind, I stick to it and allow the other opportunity to pass. I am a devout Christian, which also helps in reaching decisions and staving off burnout.”

Talking of faith and burnout, you are one of the few gynaecologists who has never carried out an abortion. Is this possible?
“Yes.

“Under current legislation, in each state hospital it is sufficient to set up just a single team that carries out abortions. The liability to ensure this sort of provision does not exist at all in church-funded hospitals.”

And we haven’t even spoken about the family, the scouts and your parish work...
“Nor about my wife, without whom none of this would function. I met Zsuzsa at university and we married 23 years ago. Alongside giving birth to our three children, she chose to work in children’s radiology, which provides her with the joy of medical work and the role as mother of the family. We both work in Gólyafészek Birth Centre, but along with others we also founded the Páty scout troop, which today has 155 members. In all probability, sooner or later we will once again find another new joint project. It is very important for us to be able to work together, to listen to each other, to talk things through, because this is the basis of a good marriage.”

You not only sing but you teach singing to both adults and children. How?
“‘Tell me what you sing and I’ll tell you what sort of person you are.’ Kodály expressed it this way a few decades ago. Today, the question is not what we sing. Because we do not sing, we consume music. If I am travelling, I don’t listen to any music because silence is extremely important in our life, and a very rare commodity. I live three hours from Budapest and when I leave, I enjoy experiencing the darkness, the dawn, the travel and the peace. Because if I am at peace, the song can sound within me.

“It is a very beautiful challenge to bring everyday singing back into people’s lives. I have been holding Dúdoló (roughly: humming) classes for more than 10 years. I didn’t set out with grandiose, far-reaching goals; all I want is for those who come to have a good time singing together like in a spinning or distaff room. On these occasions I try to pass on ethnographical background knowledge in relation to the songs yet these are primarily relaxed, communal gatherings. We regularly meet in Göd, Budapest, Tihany, Keszthely, Tapolca, Kiscsősz and Dörgicse, but I have also held ‘hummings’ in Transylvania and even in Prague and Buenos Aires for Hungarians living in the diaspora. I consider regularity to be very important: to reach each other from week to week or fortnight to fortnight. The ‘base’ already forms a community and celebrates together.

“Kodály said that we received singing as a gift from God. It serves to know, develop and fulfil ourselves. It is therapy. It is a great opportunity!”

You are a singer and ecologist. Which comes first? How do these areas come together?
“I am frequently asked how it is possible to cultivate both areas at the same time. When this word used to have light and honour, this person was called in the tradition: peasant. The peasant sang, danced, knew the world around him or her, used but not exploited the environment, gazing heavenward he or she read the course of the stars, and cured man and animal from the pharmacy of God. I know only a fraction of this yet I learn while teaching, day by day. For example, today I loaded 30 kg of corn into the boot of my car because 100 children are waiting for me in the afternoon and 200 tomorrow. We hold a farming almanac, an unconventional tradition and environmental class, where we try to communicate to children growing up in an urban setting how up-to-date and useful the knowledge preserved by the peasant is still today.”

But you are not getting the children to kneel on the corn, are you?
“Yes, they insist! Children can be asked in Göd, Nagykovácsi, Nagymaros, Gazdagrét, Gödöllő, Vecsés and Újhatvan why it is good to kneel on the corn while saying magical phrases. At the beginning of the class we talk about from where and through whom this plant arrived, which is suggested by its common names tengeri (by sea) or törökbúza (Turkish wheat), but in relation to this we can also talk about the fact that if we are producing something in one part of the world for which there is demand in another part of the world, what a burden this imposes on the given ecosystem and from this it is our common responsibility. Kids tend to know corn in its popcorn form and now they experience that all parts of this plant were used in olden times. We make nodding birds from the corn stalk, angels from the leaf and husk, we sample corn hoecakes and polenta, we bag up the shelled corncob, and thanking them for their help I tell them with so many dried cobs I won’t have any need to chop up kindling for cooking for the next month. Nothing left over, nothing wasted.

“Naturally we sing, dance and tell tales, because as Skorenovac (Székelykeve) story-teller Boldizsár Szőcs puts it: ‘what isn’t in a fairy tale simply does not exist.’ The tale is the poor man’s university.

“I brought you a present: when I loaded the corn into the sack, a few corn kernels fell out and I thought I would surprise you with them. Look how beautiful they are! Even such a tiny thing can give joy when I hold it, look at it, touch it and get to know it!”

You have placed the corn kernels into the palm of my hand: it would even be possible to do the so fashionable mindfulness meditation with these that people are currently doing using raisins. Deepening attention can be practised with corn kernels as well.
“I am certain of that. Hold them in your open palm, sensing their tiny weight, observing the shades of colour, the miracle happens seeing that none of them are identical. You are contemplating. Einstein said that there are two ways we can live our lives: either as though nothing is a miracle, or as though everything is a miracle. You decide.”

Is there anything we discover now as a novelty that has already long been known in the tradition?
When I went to Moldavia, I saw plants planted and grown in gardens according to the principles of permaculture. True, the woman didn’t know that the way she cultivates her garden is what scientists term permaculture farming, nor did she know that what she called ‘gyöntölés’ others in the world know as baby massage. She inherited this knowledge in the tradition and uses it. In many cases, science lags behind tradition. I read somewhere that if a conscientious scientist travels all the pathways of science, taking winding routes and coming upon dead-ends, then all of a sudden he will find himself back where tradition originally set off. Of course, I don’t want to say that there is no need for science. Indeed, there is. Two people exist in us, the shepherd and the scientist. Just as we have a heart and a head. And now if we are talking about the Advent period, let’s see who found Jesus in the manger and how.

“Three kings set off from distant lands, three wise men from three countries, and they met up. They followed the path of knowledge, they followed their heads. Still, the shepherds arrived first, those who heard the word of an angel!

“I believe that a shepherd and a scientist exist in all of us. And these two must be in harmony in order to live a full life. As Christmas approaches, I encourage everybody to look not in the shops but in the traditions of the winter festive season.”

You also said that there is no such thing as sustainable development. Why?

“Because it is time to wake up: development cannot be sustained! There is such a thing as sustainable farming, a sustainable lifestyle – and in this area we can learn a lot from shepherds, peasants, native peoples: from all those who use the local environment in which they live. Science has to find how to move forward together with these people, arm in arm.

“The fact is, we face great challenges. I can recommend the articles, books and study papers of ethnobotanist Zsolt Molnár (researcher with the Ecological Institute of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences). For many years now he has been drawing attention to the importance of knowledge preserved by tradition. He claims that the knowledge of shepherds is essential for the preservation of our planet. His research also suggests that by following ancient teachings, Gyimes meadow cultivation not only does not reduce biological diversity, but at times it appears to actually increase it. Could there really be a solution where humanity, looking on itself as a part of nature, actually enriches and not destroys it? Researchers from all parts of the world go there to try and understand what it is that these people are doing differently. It is vital work since never in the history of humanity has nature been devastated to such a degree as now. It is a fact that we stand at the threshold of the sixth mass extinction. I don’t believe that it is possible to change this from the top down through climate summits, rather it needs individual decisions. Everybody must radically transform themselves using a different perspective of the world and lifestyle. And I believe that this could bring about change. There is a way out.”

One could really say that in this instance you are not preaching water and drinking wine since you are now in your fifth year of living in a small house without water, electricity or gas…
“As my partner puts it, we are just ‘cuddly toy peasants’ because we use a car and a ton of other blessings of civilization that were not available earlier.

“I wouldn’t like anybody to think that I live like those people from centuries earlier, far from it! But it is very good to experience this way of thinking.

“What a joy it is to drink of the spring water you have collected, when you don’t waste electricity. It is a great thing to experience quiet, candlelight, what a good thing it is to progress with the rhythm of nature. Here in the city I am always turning off lights left on unnecessarily by my colleagues because I think that what is now left burning is for us an entire year’s energy consumption. We make decisions every minute and I think that many small decisions are capable of changing first my immediate environment, then the larger and even wider environment. Of course, this lifestyle involves many challenges. Things you have to give up. There are no hot showers each morning! But there are other things instead.”

There is an archaic prayer that you often put to children in the form of a riddle: ‘In a whole year a whole God’s tree, in a whole God’s tree twelve fine branches, on its twelve fine branches its fifty-two blossoms, on its fifty-two blossoms three golden apples. Now, what is it?’ The answer is not as easy as one would have thought.
“They instantly grasp the fifty-two flowers: this is how many weeks there are in a year. Well, when they say this I respond: you are right – but then again you are not. Because it is tricky to work out from the fifty-two weeks what the three golden apples are. Taking a scientific route, approaching the matter analytically, searching for graspable points, it is by no means easy to come to a solution. But an artist using the right side of the brain feels that there is symbolism and poetry in it. Let’s see how the Moldavian Csángó Hungarians say the same thing: they speak of sixty-six blossoms. But if I add that the Csángós preserve one of the ancient versions of the Hungarian language and they are very religious, we get closer to the solution. Because the blossoms mark the number of festive days and not the weeks. Three of the blossoms stand out and nurture the golden apples, these are our three major festivals: Christmas, Easter and Pentecost. The joy of birth, the mystery of salvation and the promise of the advent of the Holy Spirit are so inseparable that they are frequently to be found together in our songs and our prayers. The first of the three golden apples just starts to shine now.”

Today, Christmas is more about consuming, buying, wrapping, throwing away, accumulating.
“Who doesn’t know the feeling of the child unwrapping the present they received, that they longed for – and yet something is still missing inside them. An object will never fulfil that which we truly desire – abundance often gives birth to scarcity. Instead of the gift-giving madness, what would be the right thing to do at Christmas? Being together. Tradition tells us everything, we just have to follow it.

“Long ago, Christmas Eve was for the immediate family and since several generations lived together, that meant that perhaps even the great grandparents were there. On the following day the larger family took part in the celebrations and then the whole village – since one half of the village was called István, the other half János. On one day the Istváns were greeted, on the other day the Jánoses – nobody was left alone!

“Modern urban existence is strange indeed, when it is emphasised that you are somebody when you build a career, when you are an individual. Contrary to this, the Chuvashes, an eastern kindred people, say that you are truly strong when you can sit down at one table with your relatives. The Christmas table of olden days was packed with many things – walnuts, honey, candles, Luca wheat – and they would put an apple there as well, cut up into as many segments as there were people sitting round the table. This was to remind them that next year they are not alone, they belong somewhere. The whole apple is the family. Kinship is the greatest power keeping people together, it is a system of assurance, a strong hedge fence, to quote the Chuvashes once again.”

On the other hand, many feel, especially now, around the festive season, that they must have strength precisely to be able to bear, to put up with the relatives.
“That it is easier alone, and that happiness is created by a rehearsed smile on Facebook. This is what the individualized world would like us to believe. But this is a scam!

“It is not by accident that we are born where we are, it is no accident that we receive those difficulties we find ourselves facing. The religious person knows that faith does not make life easier, it makes us stronger.”

I just heard a story about two siblings who did not speak to each other for six years because one accidentally strayed half a plough width into the other’s land. This occurred somewhere in Transylvania, where perhaps they have still not totally broken with tradition.
“I’m not saying that there won’t be difficulties and challenges! Indeed, there will be plenty. Old people used to say: if every little friction irritates, how will you polish your mirror? Standing next to each other, boldly facing life, we can become polished. The second of the golden apples, Easter, falls in spring, when nature is renewed, reborn. This celebration calls on us, too, for rebirth and forgiveness. The fast is designed to cleanse the body inside and out. It is the perfect occasion to settle differences. Long ago, one could not attend the celebration, the joy of resurrection without first having made peace with all those you were on bad terms with. Tradition teaches us this as well!”